Let it never be said that feminists aren’t adept at using visual devices and scare tactics effectively. That both of these go hand-in-hand isn’t surprising.
I recently stumbled across a flow chart produced by the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network (RAINN) that seems to be making its way across the fem-o-sphere that decries the fact that 15 out of 16 rapists serve no prison time.
The chart is mostly effective because it (is):
- easy to read
- alarmist in conclusion
- raises concerns about a hot-button issue that can not ultimately be solved
- has arrows
- doesn’t actually draw any conclusions (as per point 3).
The rape flow chart is yet another liberal argument without an argument.
Let me add perspective here. This flow chart compiled data from three governmental and institutional surveys about rape, attempted rape, and sexual assault. It is telling that the creators of the chart lump all of those under the rape umbrella – no doubt to maximize effectiveness. The opening salvo states:
60% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported to the police, according to a statistical average of the past 5 years.2 Those rapists, of course, never spend a day in prison. Factoring in unreported rapes, only about 6% of rapists ever serve a day in jail.
The argument starts out in good faith by acknowledging “rapes/sexual assaults” as separate categories, but then it drops the less effective terminology and opts to call all of these crimes “rapes” by the end of the paragraph.
But, for the purposes of determining real arrests, convictions, and penalizations it would be best for us to understand the difference between these categories. The governmental surveys define sexual assault as grabbing, fondling, or verbal threats. Rape is unwanted or coerced sexual penetration. According to statistics, 35% of reported cases were considered rape, 27% were considered attempted rape while 38% were considered sexual assault. If feminists had their way every sexual assault case – even where a man grabbed a woman’s breast or rear end on a train or made lewd comments toward her – would end in a prison sentence. But the courts and justice system don’t work that way; prison terms are socially constructed based upon resource constraints and criminal severity. Feminists hope that if they hem and haw enough, crimes like unwanted ass-grabbing will supersede robbery, larceny, theft, aggravated assault and battery, forgery, or illicit drug dealing in terms of sentencing.
To gain proper perspective on how effective our justice system is in punishing rape, we should analyze other crimes. We can consider homicide and its analogous strains (made for comparison to rape and sexual assault) – attempted murder and aggravated assault and battery. According to government statistics, 40% of homicides are left uncleared. An uncleared homicide is one in which authorities neither make an arrest nor formally close the case. But homicide is different from rape (sexual assault) – not only in terms of absolute effect but also in its ability to be defined. A 40% unsolved rate is relatively high considering that “homicide” and “murder” have objectively defined end results: a dead person. Homicide – except in cases of self-defense – aren’t subject to fluid and subjective terms much like rape is – which opens up room for rape to be categorized like homicide – with degrees like capital murder, first-degree, second-degree, manslaughter, and involuntary manslaughter. But feminists prefer to lump any unwanted sexual contact into the “rape” category because it casts a wide net and adds to the concept of male original sin. Unlike rape, with homicides there is no room for false reporting whereas experts’ consensus on false rape claims puts that figure at around 10%. Given that some (many?) sexual assaults aren’t actionable offenses, and given the fact that some rape claims are false, a 50% arrest rate would be workably more significant than a 60% arrest rate for homicide. Here a table from the National Center for Policy Analysis’ report on crime arrest, prosecution, and sentencing statistics:
As you can see, homicides have a 40% probability of ending in prison time. Keep in mind, these figures are from 1997 and that homicide arrest rates have fallen about 6% since then (I don’t have data on how much rape/sexual assault arrests have fallen). Rape is second among all categories of crime with a 16.3% prison sentencing rate. As such, a 50% arrest ratio for a category that is 62% rape and attempted rape (the harshest crimes falling under the “rape” umbrella) sounds relatively successful to my subjective brain. It seems that feminists who accept rape as their cause really have a problem with the entire justice system – in both their constrained resources and their imbedded standards of prosecution and guilt-determination (aka The Constitution).
In that this flow chart is an argument without an argument it fails to teach us anything useful. It then becomes another scare tactic used by feminists to convince us all that “something has to be done” without addressing exactly what that “something” is and what we’re able to do about it. The chart doesn’t make clear exactly where the problem lies. Does the “problem” lie with women who are unwilling to report their rapes? Is it with the police and prosecutors who don’t take rape seriously? Is it with juries who let that pesky phrase “beyond a reasonable doubt” get in the way? How about with judges who are too lenient on convicted “rapists”? Or, finally, is it with society which doesn’t take rape seriously enough?
Subjectively – like feminists and the purveyors of this chart – a 16.3% prison time ratio seems about right considering a.) 38% of offenses are sexual assault and 27% are attempted rape – crimes which may not have deserve prison time – relatively speaking b.) some of the accusations are false claims; knowledge of such occurrences cascade through the justice system and have multiplicative effects (but we aren’t allowed to harangue false rape claimants because that makes us rape apologists) c.) prosecutors may not feel they have enough evidence to convict d.) juries may not find the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and e.) judges may not see fit to put those who are convicted of their crime in prison – especially if that crime is some sort of lewd grabbing or sexual taunting.
These visual tactics and open-ended questions are often used by leftist movements which maintain their heads of steam by always having something to fight for. Being radical, that something is Utopia. For feminists whose raison d’etre is thwarting rape (a noble effort, don’t get me wrong), their work is never done until the world is ridden of this scourge. As such, we have to understand a flow chart like this for what it is. It is a tool by which radical feminists seek to co-opt focus, attention, and resources on the issues they deem important. Through it, they are merely the loudest voices among the crowd hoping for attention to their cause. Feminists who publish scare tactics like this are tacitly saying that other crimes aren’t as worthy of attention, government funds and private dollars are unjustly spent, and peoples’ attention is focused in the wrong direction. Where are the advocacy groups seeking to increase arrest and prosecutions for people who commit homicide? Surely death carries more weight than rape – not to even mention sexual assault. Their effective visual aids and alarming pseudo-analysis coalesce in attracting attention, sympathy, and – above all else – funding. But just as rape and rapists will always exist as long as humans are human, unmentioned rapes will always exist too (and as long as “linguistic inflation” gobbles up more and more situations and calls them rape). Prosecutors will never be able to find enough evidence in every rape case to press on towards trial; juries will never close the asymmetric information and moral hazard gap so as to increase convictions. Not to mention the budgetary constraints which make it impossible for everyone to work in the D.A.’s office or for a prison to be built on every street corner. A full-on eradication of rape/sexual assault will never happen unless, that is, we were able to institute a Big Brother like society where rapes wouldn’t even occur in the first place. But given that, lots of other things – non criminal speech and non criminal behavior along the way – will be thwarted. When Utopia comes into existence, Utopia is far from existing.
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My boyfriend and I are proud supporters of Rainn so I won’t say anything bad about their company. Though I’m in it for the awareness, he’s in it because some black chick is spokesperson for them. Not something you want to hear from your bf but I guess he has jungle fever. Thank god she’s a celeb!
Also it was founded and created by a male so I don’t know where the feminist thing comes in at.
Scott Berkowitz is his name.
I don’t know who creates the flow charts or whatever but I do think that he has a hand in it somewhere.
Overall, I’m kind of confused about the post. I don’t understand it in terms of what you are attacking? It is the chart? or the people you feel promote it? I feel like you’re kind of brushing rape off with the last paragraph about how prosecutors can’t win every case and blah blah blah. It sounds insensitive to me and that’s not cool Chuckleberry!
I do think that sexual abuse is a horrendous thing that should result in the castration of any male who commits it and RAINN talks about the abuse towards women , men and children.
Their charts might be misleading but who does it hurt?
Again, I’m not sure the point of this piece.
Also to add on to that.
The comment you made about them saying that it is more important that other crimes is bogus.
Really Chucky, stop letting your dislike for Feminist blind you. It has nothing to do with this being better or more important than that. It’s about fighting the odds and empowering individuals who have been raped or sexually abused and trying to fix a system that lets people walk away at high numbers just so they can do it again.
No one is trying to take away from it but people tend to brush rape off and rarely work hard to put these people away. Homicide is always worked on. How many serial killers, murders walk free every day. Very Few get off but with rapist the penalties aren’t as stiff and they are than thrown to a officer who has 200 others like them.
So it really is no harm in trying to fix a system that writes rape off and yes, death does hold more ground but that doesn’t take away from rape and it shouldn’t lower its importance in the justice system. Again, I think your being insensitive and if you knew someone who was raped, I do highly doubt you would be arguing about its importance compared to homicide. Instead you’ll be advocating for a chance in the system.
And one last thing, once you get killed…your dead! There is no emotional, mental and possibly physical problem you have after that. No one is saying homicides are not important but once they are gone, there’re gone. It’s just now a fact of bringing their killers to justice. Rapes victims on the other hand are rarely killed (it would be a homicide than) and have to deal with the emotional and mental aspect of being raped for the rest of their lives.
Marie – “I do think that sexual abuse is a horrendous thing that should result in the castration of any male who commits it”
There also seems to be a good bit of it being perpetrated by women. What would be the equivalent punishment for them?
Marie – “So it really is no harm in trying to fix a system that writes rape off…”
Where, exactly, are you getting this crap about the criminal justice system “writing off” rape? There are a significant number of dedicated sex-crime units in law enforcement. Essentially any PD with the budget to support one, has one.
As the spouse of a prosecutor, I can also tell you that there are courses for prosecutors on how to handle rape and sexual assault cases. A given prosecutor is more likely to have been trained on sex-crime cases than on homicide cases.
Marie – “Overall, I’m kind of confused about the post. I don’t understand it in terms of what you are attacking?
Hum? My guess would be that he attacking the general state of ignorance amongst the populace that results in people seeing things like that flowchart and coming to the conclusion that the Criminal Justice System must “write off rape”.
Marie:
The sexual apologist attacks start early!
I aim to put rape/sexual assault in its proper perspective. For one, I’d like to demarcate between coerced rape where the alternative is death or a perceived threat of death and date rape or drunk-chick rape. I’m not saying that the latter are cool by any means; I’d just like to be aware that there are differences. When RAINN says that 15 of 16 rapists don’t spend time in jail, that is highly misleading. What are they trying to make us aware of? Being the purveyors of this message, I’d like if people who focus on the issue of rape wouldn’t just dangle scary statistics over our heads to scare us in to harboring images of rapists who are always on the prowl committing their crimes and then getting off scott free. For one, it pushes forth the image that all men are rapists or predisposed to rape if not checked by social norms, stringent law enforcement, and strict judicial standards. In fact, you make this statement:
Any “male” who commits it…how about any woman who might commit it as well? After all, you said “sexual abuse” – what does that entail? If a woman commits sexual abuse should we be allowed to carve out her ovaries? I’d be willing to entertain the idea of a violent male rapist who preys on people – women, girls, men, or boys – be castrated. But as with the death penalty, I’d like a stringent standard for such behavior. Just like I don’t want a man guilty of manslaughter put in the electric chair, I don’t want a guy who committed date rape having his balls cut off (or the chemical version of such castration).
My last bit of commentary is actually a large social question having nothing to do with rape per se. It has to do with the natural constraints of our government and society when dealing with crime. First and foremost, how many resources should we devote to crime? There are any number of government funded programs – military, education, housing, infrastructure, etc. – that need to be paid for. How does a government and a society determine the allocation for such funding and attention? My main reason for writing this piece is to provide a little bit of resistance to the feminist utopian ideal – one that I think, after 40 years, has overreached a bit. Rape is horrible, yes. But how powerful are we – as a society – at curtailing it and punishing it? If we met the utlimate goals of organizations like RAINN (the utopian ideal of zero rape/sexual assault) and other feminists who make this their raison d’etre we – as a government and as individuals – would go broke. I don’t aim to say that nobody should advocate for this cause, but at least allow me to provide some temperance.
As I wrote, where are the macro-level advocates against homicide? My guess is that too many men fall victim to homicide to make it a cause worth advocating against.
Marie:
If we currently have a system that “lets people walk away at high numbers” then that applies to every crime – not just rape. If you look at the figures at NCPA that I linked to above the second table you’ll see that the median prison term for committed violent offenders of rape is 47.5 months compared to 67 months for murder. The loss of a life is worth only two more years of imprisonment?
This is much more insensitive than anything I wrote. The sad part for a murdered person is that they don’t get to feel anything – not even the emotional, mental, and physical problems that rape victims suffer. We are punishing the criminal for the absolute effects of their crime. Murder is many magnitudes more serious than rape of any sort.
Does this include date rape or drunk girl rape or those vague areas where a woman didn’t exactly say “yes” but still went through with sex? Do they suffer long term psychological effects? And if they do, how much of those effects are psychologically constructed by feminists who take the initiative to dictate to these women that they should feel really horribly for the rest of their lives?
Getting rather tired of this “all men are evil” messages spewed everywhere.
Side note, female sexual offenders get off (heh heh) with a slap of the wrist as compared to the male variety.
Slwerner-
The women deserve the death penalty. Though I think that they are in the MINORITY with bold letters. Over 90 percent of those kind of people are males.
Justice System doesn’t write off rape? “Oh yeah, here’s a few years in prison and you can head back out and do it again”. Let us give you a parole officer who has 200 of you bastards and let you commit the crime again. How many of these people get life in prison compared to killers?
An example are kids who are kidnapped and people who are raped by men(or women) who were already offenders.
Again, you haven’t prove that the Justice System doesn’t.
Where the part where you mention if they are committing the crimes they do again, how long they are imprisoned, etc.
Chuck-
It is? For every person who was raped, they have a rapist (minus serial). Now out of those rapist (aka people who rape people), 15 out of every 16 are sent to jail. It might because the crime isn’t reported or simply because the Justice System prosecutes and fails. How is that misleading?
THEY ARE FACTS CHUCK! What in the world do you want them to say?
Basically your trying to write it off as irrelevant.
Scare us? Chuck you’re looking for some alternative reasons to attack the feminist who promote this by picnicking at the chart.
Seriously, your paranoia is showing. It has nothing to do with pushing the fact that all men are rapist. Where do they say that all the men who commit rape are yada yada? They said that of those who do, they are not sent to jail at high numbers!
Majority of the rapist walking are males. I don’t know the exact percentage but I’m sure over 95% of rapist are males. For the females, they deserve the death penalty.
Those who commit murder have different degrees. You have self defense, yada yada. So I don’t think that all of the murders deserve it.
I think we could be if the justice system had a tighter leash on them. At the end of it, we can’t stop people in the middle of trying to rape people. You can’t control what they do and when but I do think that once these are reported, we should try our best to catch these people , prosecute them and not allow them to walk free after a couple of years. Just so more than half can go back and do the crime again to another person.
As for advocates against homicide, we have plenty of groups that are against violence and gangs and all those things.
Marie –
What’s your take on rape shield laws and false rape incidents? How about the Duke Lacrosse incident?
boys expelled for touching a girl’s breasts:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/out-of-touch-school-pushes-pc-line/story-e6frezz0-1225938348934
“”They were honest and said they did touch the top of her breast, consensually, and she had no problem with it,” the mother said. On August 17, “all hell broke loose”, with the “accusations deemed to be of a sexual assault nature” and the boys were expelled.”
but ball tapping isn’t sexual in nature if done by a girl?
http://www.wthr.com/story/11568681/statewide-survey-shows-ball-tapping-problem-widespread
Chuck-
No, this is only pertaining to the crime of rape because the website is about rape and therefore doesn’t cover all of the crimes committed. That’s the median Chuck, I’ve seen plenty of murders go to prison for life compared to rapist who might get a year or three. A life lost isn’t worth years of imprisonment ,of course it matters your crime (aka self defense) but I do think that those people deserve to be killed the same way they killed someone else.
It is insensitive but I don’t know what you can do for someone who is long gone and won’t ever be back, feel the justice or probably even see it. Your fighting for a shell that sadly left on a bad note but nonetheless isn’t here to testify and see justice brought compared to someone who was raped and is living, breathing and dealing with the aftermath of the rape rather than being in the heavens above or the hells below.
You feel that but I personally do and don’t. You deserve to be sitting in prison for taking another life but I do think that you take some sort of people’s lives when you rape them. I personally was never raped but I’ve listen to testimonies and hear how these women, men and children are dealing with so many things. You’ve had wives who couldn’t be intimate with their husband, Men who were ashamed to tell their story because they felt they were homosexuals. Young people who were terrified to walk down streets or poorly lit areas. The list goes on for me, so maybe that’s why I feel the way I do.
Date Rape is no different because someone is violating your body without your permission.
As for girls who get drunk at a party. I’m on the line with that one but no one should drag you into doing something know damn well you probably couldn’t say your ABC’s.
I can’t speak for every victim but I do think they suffer from some sort of it. There are different degrees but it’s safe to say that all rape victims deal with some sort of psychological effect.
It doesn’t last forever because with help many do overcome it but those who don’t want to get help or ashamed of it, usually deal with it forever or end up in a deep depression.
It’s not only women , it’s men, boys and girls. Also what are you talking about? I never read anywhere that feminist stated that they should feel horrible about it for the rest of their lives. Those who try to help them (not only feminist or even females) , want to uplift them.
I agree with a rape shield law since your past sexual history has nothing to do with what happened. If I had 3 sexual partners and was raped tomorrow by some anonymous person, my past history should have nothing to do with the fact that I was violated.
I don’t agree with false rape accusations and I would probably spit in the fact of any woman or man who can accuse someone of such a horrendous crime. It’s nothing that should be joked about and to use it to hurt whoever is a damn shame.
The Duke case was sad. She was a stripper who claimed they raped her. I was on the line with it at first because there was a possibility that it could have gotten out of hand. If the case was true, I would definitely say jail them for thinking they could do whatever they want to someone who was a stripper simply because her occupation “allows” them.
When I found out it wasn’t true, I was slightly relieved that she wasn’t raped but also extremely pissed off that she would try to spin her having sex for money into a rape case. Though the prosecutor really went out on the limb to prove it for whatever reason. I’m glad he was fighting it but I don’t think he did it for the sake of the rape but for the publicity.
Marie – ”Again, you haven’t prove that the Justice System doesn’t.”
And, likewise, you have utterly failed to prove that it does.
Marie – ” Now out of those rapist (aka people who rape people), 15 out of every 16 are sent to jail. It might because the crime isn’t reported or simply because the Justice System prosecutes and fails. How is that misleading?
THEY ARE FACTS CHUCK! “
No! they are not exactly facts, because there is NO way to determine how many of the 15 who are accused of rape actually raped. Chuck was overly generous in stating that false rape accusations are only about 10% of all allegations. Serious studies by (feminist) researchers like Eugene Kanin have demonstrated a much higher rate of allegations that are PROVEN (not just believed to be) false. (see The prevalence of false rape claims)
Also, there is no way to verify that 60% of rapes are not reported. Like Susan Brownmiller’s claim of a 2% false reporting rate, that 60% percent is simply a guesstimate (pulled out of the ass of some feminist who believes all men are rapists, no doubt).
And, it’s not as if police and prosecutors don’t try to build a case for every charge they receive. The decision not to prosecute comes only after a careful consideration of the evidence. Thus, if a significant number of cases are declined, what it really means is that a significant number of cases cannot be proven in a court of law.
And, not all rape convictions deserve a lengthy prison sentence anyway. How ‘bout that young guy who was convicted of rape for simply not “pulling out” fast enough when the woman, who had previously consent, asked him to stop. It was determined that he continued for something like 6 seconds before he stopped and pulled out, and ended up getting 4 years in prison. That seems like serious over-kill in the direction of being far to harsh.
And, the majority of rape claims are not of the stranger kidnap-rape, where a woman is beaten and raped in the bushes (and would be likely to suffer long-term psychological consequences), but rather of the “he said/she said” date-rape variety (which are not so likely to carry long-term consequences for a woman – beyond her reputation being damaged, that is).
The first one is kind of messed up since she admitted to letting them. I do think that there is a fine line between sexual assault and embarrassment for letting someone touch you.
Ball Tapping is messed up and I would probably punch a person in the face if they ever tried to do that to a guy I know. It’s messed up and medically (i think) you can mess a guy up. That’s just fucking cruel and I would kick you in the ass for it!
Namae Nanka,
That ball tapping article is really sick.
@slwerner
A recent study showed that false rape counts for 2 to 8 percent of all rape claims. That leaves over 90 percent that are really raped.
As for 60 percent, they can go based on hotlines and other sources of help centers that people call about rape and other things. It’s pretty much a estimate though.
There are a lot of reasons why prosecutors won’t prosecute. Because one doesn’t, doesn’t mean that they are lying but simply lack evidence. Not going to the hospital and going home to take a shower can wash away all of the evidence needed.
They all don’t? I never read that story before, can you give me a link? I think it’s very rare and he didn’t deserve jail time because she agreed to it and willing had sex with him. Why anyone would even look at a case of a females screaming rape for a couple of seconds is beyond me. Especially with a man who she probably admitted to having sex with.
US Statistics show that 26 percent of rapes are anonymous.38 percent are people they know are friends/people they know and 26 percent might be an ex boyfriend or something of that nature. The last 7 percent is by a family member.
You say they don’t carry them but there are plenty of kids who were raped by a relative and deal with it’s effect long term. There are women who were raped by a ex-boyfriend who was crazy or whatever and deal with it long term in a sense where they can’t live life without be on guard with other men around them and who they meet.
So let’s stop generalizing the effect because every victim is different and no matter how anonymous or personal the relationship between the two people are, the effect is really no different in cases.
Marie – “A recent study showed that false rape counts for 2 to 8 percent of all rape claims. That leaves over 90 percent that are really raped.”
Oh? What study is that (link, please). In case you weren’t aware, just saying that there is a study doesn’t make such a study magically exist. So, again, name it!
Marie – “There are a lot of reasons why prosecutors won’t prosecute.”
Also, a lot of women don’t realize that they were “raped” until their friends inform them that the guy they had sex with wasn’t a hot desirable alpha-male, but just some beta-loser. Regret-after-the-fact is a significant contributor to rape allegations. They are extremely difficult to prove in court, especially when numerous witness can testify to amorous activities leading up to the sex.
You seem to make the assumption that all incidents of alleged rape are some horrifying use of brute force against an unwilling and struggling victim. That is simply not the case. With a great many alleged rapes, the victim simple claims that she felt “coerced” rather than physically “forced”. If taken before a jury, most such cases will end in an acquittal. Yet, many alleged victim’s insist that the case be taken forward, and prosecutors comply. that’s why you see such a low rate of conviction in rape trials. Forcible stranger rapes with solid evidence (DNA, typically) have a very high rate of conviction, on the other hand.
What this is telling you is that most “rapes” are not what you are imagining them to be.
Marie – “I never read that story before, can you give me a link?”
I’m looking for the link to that specific story. I cannot seem to remember the guy’s name. I do recall that he was only 19 at the time, and got several years. I’ll keep looking.
However, I did find two others right off:
4 years for 30 seconds, in a case where it was later the women later confessed to conspiring to have him set-up for the rape charge &
5 years for 5-15 seconds
Oops, that first link should have been:
4 years for 30 seconds, in a case where it was later the women later confessed to conspiring to have him set-up for the rape charge
There was this case, which falls under the “it was consensual at the time…but…”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/21/arab-man-convicted-of-rap_n_654425.html
Chuck–
Unlike rape, with homicides there is no room for false reporting whereas experts’ consensus on false rape claims puts that figure at around 10%.
That’s way low for false date rape claims these days. I’ve seen studies referred to that show 25-40% false date rape claims — of the buyer’s remorse after the fact variety.
”If a rape is reported, there is a 50.8% chance of an arrest.”
This claim, though technically correct, deserves discussion.
There are two significant factors in why the arrest rate seems low.
First, despite what the man-hating gender-feminist claim (as Marie also seems to claim as well), the rate of false reporting is actually quite high. In cases where a woman alleges a rape so as to provide cover for her infidelities, they often give a vague description which is unlikely to match anyone who can be “placed’ near the alleged scene. And, as can be seen via a perusal of recent accounts at the False Rape Society site, police investigations often lead to a confession of falsification or a determination that the act never occurred before a suspect is identified.
Secondly, actual rapists – especially serial rapists – are very good at not leaving forensic evidence and concealing their appearance and identities. Many violent rapes and rape-murders go unsolved due to the efforts of actual rapist to NOT be caught.
And, in the case of a serial rapist who, for instance rapes ten women before being caught, the way the statistics are generated, it will appear as those only one arrest was made for ten rapes (a 10% arrest rate), even though the arrest rate for that rapist is actually 100%.
RAINN has done a terrible job of putting their stats together – likely, deliberately so. (but, hey, Marie was effectively convinced, and ignorance does run high throughout modern society)
What repellant extremism.
When people hear sexual assault they imagine something like forcibly stripping a girl and finger banging her etc. But sexual assault can and does include things as minor as patting a woman’s ass for just a second and her being pissed about it, or having a grudge (including after the fact) against the guy.
Innocent men is who it hurts. Men who get falsely accused in the rape hysteria that feminist work to whip up especially on many university campuses get hurt. Girls feel entitled to cry rape any time they have after the fact regrets, particularly if any drinking was involved, as it generally is in first time sex with someone.
Also there’s rape and then there’s rape. What campus “honor” codes often call date rape isn’t rape under any state law. E.g. when she regrets having sex for any of a variety of reasons the next day or week (other girls are calling her a slut, her bf heard of it, etc., she’s embarrassed the guy wasn’t hotter, etc.) and had been drinking at the time, but wasn’t passed out, had freely gone off with him somewhere and hadn’t clearly said no as he proceeded to have sex with her. That’s not real rape but feminists are working hard to create the male demonizing hysteria that will sweep that up into being rape.
This is a stellar post.
Marie just doesn’t get it.
CHuck said it exactly right:
Murder is many magnitudes more serious than rape of any sort.
*Any* attempt to justify the opposite of this assertion, this very obvious assertion, placing the sexual inviolability of a woman (or man) above the actual right to *live*, illustrates nothing less than the complete moral vacuousness of the argument.
Murder is final. Marie tries to make the claim that rape is worse – because the woman has to live with it.
Yes, yes. She has to *live* with it.
The murdered person is *dead*. They don’t get to live with it. Living with it would be an improvement.
This is what galls me about arguing with women about this sort of thing: The tendentious and emotive arguments that assume morally repugnant positions.
Murder is among the worst possible things any person can do.
Rape – even violent rape – while terrible and evil, doesn’t approach murder. At worst, it’s torture, imprisonment, confinement, assault, etc.
None of those things are murder.
Murder is absolute, final, and brutal.
A woman who murders her child (often happens) for whatever reason (it cried too loud, my BF didn’t like me being a mom, I needed drugs and the baby was holding me back) should go away for far longer than a guy who even forcibly raped a woman, or a number of women.
She butchered a life.
He assaulted (sexually or otherwise) another person – leaving them battered but alive.
Both are terrible crimes, but there’s no similarity in seriousness. The murder is infinitely worse than a rape, a casual assault in the street by some thug, etc.
Even assault that leads to crippling is worse than rape. Some guy gets the tar beaten out of him by thugs with baseball bats and has very serious injuries that prevent anything like a normal life: That’s also more serious than rape.
And date rape: when there’s not even any physical force involved? Just some mental coercion?
Still a crime, but seriously, get some perspective.
The fact that it’s sexual doesn’t add to its seriousness. Only for weak-minded amoral women who prioritize their own feelings over every other living human on Earth.
They’re still crimes, but murder – brutal assault and injury – both of these are far more serious, orders of magnitude more serious, many times more serious, than anything but the most seriously violent rape cases.
If women can’t see this, it just shows the complete moral bankruptcy they represent.
And seriously violent rape cases are serious because of the “violent” component.
I’ve always hated the moral equivalency that links man-banging-girl-while-both-are-drunk to Man-Smashes-Door-Beats-Strange-Woman-Rapes-Her.
Both involve sexual assault, but one is just stupid; it’s a crime, but it doesn’t even begin to compare to the second. The second represents an imminent danger to a whole community. The first is, relatively speaking, almost a civil matter.
It’s as if the Pussy is some Inviolable Precious Resource that is even more sacred than life itself.
That’s BS. There’s no equivalency between many of these different types of sexual assault.
Frankly, conflating these disparate definitions and actions and assigning them one rubric for identification is yet another indication of total moral bankruptcy, or blindness
@slwerner
I thought you were talking about a white guy? An Arab (if he’s the kind of I’m talking about ) doesn’t count. She’s doing the world a favor, he might go and join some Taliban and blow up shit.
Just Kidding…OKay not really.
Plus that wasn’t in the United States and something like that wouldn’t fly.
As for the other guy, I am pissed off that these guys get 5 years but REAL rapist are rarely caught like that.
http://www.awolau.org/2010/04/05/myth-busters-false-rape-reports/
That’s my link.
As far as “women not realizing that they were raped”, a lot don’t because they feel ashamed. Ever see the movie Speak? She never admitted anything until she realized that she was raped.
And the link you presented would fall in the less than 10% range. Your examples don’t do much for me since for every 1 false rape case, we can probably find 100 real ones. I’m not sure what point your trying to prove with this. It’s an exception.
The murder argument is killing me (get it, killing me?! LOL).
No really, I think that both murder and rape are bad but as I said a murdered person is dead. That’s just it, they don’t live with it. Only their family.
A raped person does live with it and unless murdered, which would cross them over, it is something that can emotionally and mentally scar someone. So while I do think that murders should be brought to justice because they took someone lives and therefore deserve to get their life taken via chair. Unless of course it was self defense or accidental, etc. This goes for both MEN and WOMEN.
Just a quick question, why are you turning this into a male female thing? There are rape victims who are males and boys and there are murder victims who are females and girls. I’m not saying this only for the women, i mean for men and boys who get raped also.
@slwerner
I thought you were talking about a white guy? An Arab (if he’s the kind of I’m talking about ) doesn’t count. She’s doing the world a favor, he might go and join some Taliban and blow up shit.
Just Kidding…OKay not really.
Plus that wasn’t in the United States and something like that wouldn’t fly.
As for the other guy, I am pissed off that these guys get 5 years but REAL rapist are rarely caught like that.
http://www.awolau.org/2010/04/05/myth-busters-false-rape-reports/
That’s my link.
As far as “women not realizing that they were raped”, a lot don’t because they feel ashamed. Ever see the movie Speak? She never admitted anything until she realized that she was raped.
And the link you presented would fall in the less than 10% range. Your examples don’t do much for me since for every 1 false rape case, we can probably find 100 real ones. I’m not sure what point your trying to prove with this. It’s an exception.
The murder argument is killing me (get it, killing me?! LOL).
No really, I think that both murder and rape are bad but as I said a murdered person is dead. That’s just it, they don’t live with it. Only their family.
A raped person does live with it and unless murdered, which would cross them over, it is something that can emotionally and mentally scar someone. So while I do think that murders should be brought to justice because they took someone lives and therefore deserve to get their life taken via chair. Unless of course it was self defense or accidental, etc. This goes for both MEN and WOMEN.
Just a quick question, why are you turning this into a male female thing? There are rape victims who are males and boys and there are murder victims who are females and girls. I’m not saying this only for the women, i mean for men and boys who get raped also.
Chuck, Are you modding comments?
@Gor.
Your right, I don’t understand.
@Doug
It’s not misleading because of some “false rape” claim your guys are holding onto by a thread. YES, there are false rape claims but majority of the people who reach out for help and go to meetings, therapist and other non-profit places aren’t faking and they rape victims who need help.
The only reason why it is misleading because it fails to make distinctions into which populations- those who are arrested and those who aren’t arrest- go free.
You’re holding onto a SMALL percentage of women who make false rape charges. They are in the minority and they are fucked up individuals who need help but I won’t flush the idea of rape and ACTUAL rape victims down the toilet, or any groups that wants them, because of small percentage that doesn’t know how to handle their own problems and use rape as a scapegoat.
You dwell on that SMALL Percentage of men who get falsely accused instead of focusing on the thousands that really are rapist and are roaming around.
Like I said before, I feel like everyone is trying to water down rape by throwing out stupid “false rape claims ” (which are in the minority), different situations (which are again, in the minority) and how homicide is more important.
As I said to Chuck, one has nothing to do with the other. Asking for more convictions and legal justices for the victims isn’t taking away from homicide. I don’t understand how in the hell Chuck managed to bring them in together.
Sounds like it’s bullshitting and instead of seeing it for what it is, you’re just trying to find something to shoot at feminist.
Now, I might be wrong and if I am, please someone explain this to me because I don’t get it at all.
Shit! Sorry for the double post!!
Gorb–
Completely agree.
You’re wrong here, the first isn’t sexual assault or date rape in the vast majority of states — unless she was passed out, or is so drunk she literally doesn’t know what she’s doing — as long as she wasn’t saying no or otherwise indicating she didn’t want the sex act to occur. If she can walk and talk even in an impaired way it’s neither date rape nor sexual assault under the law. It may be against many feminist generated campus “behavior codes” though.
Sorry all… I didn’t edit.
I’m kind of heated with this topic because there are a few individuals I consider to be friends and they were raped so to hear people sit here and basically give me some bullshit and try to down play rape with all of this other “out of the normal” shit is really upsetting. Maybe I’m wrong but as I said, I feel like you’re trying to down play rape in order to attack feminist who stand behind women who are rape and verbally lynch any man who does rape a female. Or any man who rapes someone, boy and other men included.
Marie—
It is NOT a small percentage. Feminists lie and intentionally mislead about rape ALL THE FREAKIN TIME. And you’re parroting back those lies and misrepresentations.
As well:
http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/p/prevalence-of-false-rape-claims.html
Violent stranger or acquaintance rape is a real evil. However there’s a tremendous amount of feminist whipped up hysteria and overreaching about so called date rape, which is often just bullshite. Women need to take responsibility for their own drunk or otherwise high actions.
Silly Marie,
I bet you thought I’d fall for that old feminist trick of linking to something that claims to link to something that claims to link to something else that contains The Study, and just take your word for it.
Well, I track that link, to find the link to http://www.ndaa.org/ncpvaw_the_voice_newsletter.html, which linked to http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf, in which was found the link to The Study wherein we are supposed to find out how they measured 2% to 8% false reporting rate. So, what do you suppose I found there? Well, I searched for the terms false and false reporting, and here is the sum-total of what those searches produced (Linked so that you can go there and see for yourself):
Developed an additional tracking system to differentiate sexual assault reports that are recorded as “Unfounded” versus “False.” This improves the practice of recording and tracking sexual assault crimes to ensure that they do not “disappear” within the system or fuel the societal myth that a large percentage of allegations are false.
That’s it?!?! That’s supposed to be this grand study that once-and-for-all proves that false rape reporting is only 2 to 8 percent!?!?
Excuse me while I roll around on the floor laughing my ass off for a half-hour or so.
@Marie,
This is the problem.
Women think that rape is even remotely similar to things like murder.
Murder is *death*. At the hands of another.
Rape is like being assaulted – someone coming up, holding you down and punching you in the face over and over. It’s painful, a serious violation, and is clearly assault –
But would you execute a guy who sat you you and just punched you in the face for 5 minutes?
Maybe not.
But you’d execute a guy you came up to your brother and put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger.
This is my point: When it comes to rape, the “violent rapist” is notable for being *violent*.
He’s not the same as the guy who doesn’t take no for an answer and tunnels through a squirming date.
It’s feminist garbage and moral bankruptcy that paints “rape” as a crime in and of itself as equal to all of the other most serious crimes: Murder, Assault and Battery (leading to permanent injury and disfigurement), etc.
Let me put it into terms you might be able to grasp.
You’re the victim of a crime.
Which one is worse?
- Date gets you drunk and takes advantage of you sexually. You feel shitty but are none the worse for wear.
- Man breaks into your house, bashes you around, holds a knife to your throat and rapes you, then kills you.
- Man breaks into your house, bashes you around, holds a knife to your throat and rapes you. You have injuries but nothing permanent.
- Man meets you on the street, beats you to a pulp, leaves your nearly dead, bloody body lying there, you survive but can’t walk, are crippled and need serious surgery.
- You’re at a bar and a man walks by, makes a snatch at your ass.
- You’re walking down the street and a 15 year old kid is horsing around. He drops rocks from the 20th storey balcony of his apartment, trying to hit passersby. One rock hits you. You’re in a coma for 3 weeks, and when you come out, you have permanent brain damage. He’s done this to others before.
I’ll tell you where the date rapist should go. Let’s do some moral equivalency here.
Take these crimes, determine which are the most serious.
I’ll tell you:
Every single one is orders of magnitude more serious *to you* than a man pushing himself on you after a party, forcing you to have sex, and then wandering off, leaving you in your misery and assuming you have no STDs from it. Or are pregnant. No, actually, let’s assume you’re pregnant.
You tell me which crimes are more serious. You divide them up.
The problem is that women actually do see their sex as somehow “sacred” and more important than life itself.
I’ve had women say to me that they’d rather be murdered than survive a date rape.
That’s bullshit.
Given options, we all know what an individual would decide.
So now you have no excuse to say – you don’t understand.
Murder / = Rape.
Violent Assault (and/or rape) / = date rape.
Aggravated Assault / = Rape.
Period.
The reason that the others are seen as equivalent to rape is this: The victims are women. Male rape isn’t given half the attention, though in prisons and elsewhere it’s more common and *much* more traumatic (physically and mentally).
Why? Because the victims are male, and the perpetrators are male.
But the victims are male.
Take a rape story and go and exchange grief with a family that had their brother/father/mother/sister gunned down in senseless gang violence.
If you can’t see how much more serious these other physically violent crimes are (including violent sexual assault), not just by increments but by orders of magnitude, compared to stories of, say, campus rape, then you suffer from Narcissistic Blindness.
Get over it.
When soldiers break into towns, they commit crimes in an order, and it’s usually in this scale of seriousness:
1) Genocide/mass slaughter
2) Individual murder (often after careful selection)
3) Physical assault (often quite serious and permanent)
4) Rape
5) Property crimes (theft, blowing things up, etc.)
The first three are the serious ones.
4 is humiliating, painful, and a violation, but doesn’t even compare to being, say, shot in the leg and having your body dragged around, then being beaten and left for dead – though you survive, you’re permanently injured. By comparison, the woman who was “only” raped (not to downplay it at all) got away relatively free of any kind of injury.
This particular scenario was real. My brother volunteered for the UN peacekeeping force that went into Bosnia, though Us troops weren’t there at the time. He drove armored units.
He was support, so he was often driving around VPs collecting stories and evidence.
You can decide what’s a crime in your world, but that was the REAL world. That’s where moral issues come right to the front, and your nice illusions are wastes of precious time.
As one female investigator said, …
Rapes, so long as the woman is healthy, can be noted but don’t bother. The women will survive, there’s no permanent damage, and they’re alive, more to the point. If they’re pregnant, help them end the pregnancies if they want to. Move on.
We have dead bodies and people who will never walk/talk/move again. We have mass graves filled with hundreds of people (mostly male) who have been brutally butchered.
Let me ask you: What did the women say?
Most of the time, my brother said, the women said: Don’t bother with me. i was just raped. My brother/father was killed/shot several times/beaten.
IE:
In that situation, the relative seriousness of the crimes was made starkly clear.
Rape: When there was no injury, was nowhere close to assault, murder or violent attack. And when there was injury, it was treated as seriously as any other injury – OF THE SAME SCALE.
Rape is not the Spiritual Murder of a woman, thus making it the moral equivalent of KILLING HER.
I despise the female arguments of women when they can’t see this very obvious fact.
How many black men are being killed tonight, on our country’s streets?
How many *women* are being beaten or killed tonight?
Instead, we have endless calls to protect drunken frat girls from being groped by their male peers.
Why not tell them to stop going to drunken frat parties and take some responsibility for their own actions? Why not hunt down the few men who DO commit violent rape and randomly attack women?
Why are we making moral equivalents here where there should be none?
It insults women who have been *actually raped*, being held down and screaming for her *life*, to include the whole list of “sexual assault” victims with what she experienced.
It trivializes her experience. It’s not just insulting, it’s using her pain to score political points and acquire political power.
So you maybe don’t understand. But as a woman, you really, really should.
Seems that link didn’t come out right. here it is:
http://www.evawintl.org/mad.aspx?subpage=4
Marie –
I posted the Arab man link, so don’t confuse my link with slwerner’s story about the man who got 4 years for not withdrawing in 4 seconds mid-intercourse after being told to stop. Note: he still did stop, just not fast enough.
Anyway, 2 different stories – I just found it interesting that he was found guilty (in any jurisdiction) of rape because he lied. No drugs, no alcohol, no physical force, nadda. Just a lie.
The implication is…What’s next? Husband being convicted of rape because he told a white lie, “No honey your ass looks great!”, but later found out he was lying?! (obviously religion and white lies are a little different, but the legal definition of rape is getting quite muddy).
Marie–
http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/p/prevalence-of-false-rape-claims.html
Girls are actively encouraged in college to consider any sexual act they “wish hadn’t occurred” as rape despite their not communicating a clear “no, no further” etc. Male oppressive feminist bullshite.
@Doug1
Both involve sexual assault, but one is just stupid; it’s a crime, but it doesn’t even begin to compare to the second.
You’re wrong here, the first isn’t sexual assault or date rape in the vast majority of states — unless she was passed out, or is so drunk she literally doesn’t know what she’s doing — as long as she wasn’t saying no or otherwise indicating she didn’t want the sex act to occur. If she can walk and talk even in an impaired way it’s neither date rape nor sexual assault under the law. It may be against many feminist generated campus “behavior codes” though.
Most of those behavior codes make it almost impossible to actually have sex and not be breaking the rules.
Basically, women and men ignore them.
And it flies in the face of female sexuality, too. Most women want to be swept up by the right kind of man. Alas, when the man mistakes himself for the right kind of man.
Gorbachev–
Completely agree. Date rape is heavily bullshite. I’m always skeptical. (It’s not the same thing as acquaintance rape at all.)
Marie –
Also, you seem to think “false rape claims” don’t matter. How do you feel about “false rape convictions”? IE: A man being falsely sent to prison for 10, 20, 30 plus years? (Typically this is before DNA evidence, which is what is used to clear their name after having served X years in prison)
What’s worse:
1 night of forced sex
or
25 years no freedom…oh, and forced sex in prison showers
Thoughts?
Gorb–
Yeah. But what the campus behavior codes do is hand girls a whole lot of power if they’re treated dismissively etc. after the fact of a hookup. I’m convinced that’s a whole lot of what’s behind the feminist whipped up date rape “take back the night” hysteria.
@Doug1,
Date rape is often quite serious. I’ve heard some pretty harrowing stories. But I can’t stand it when women make some moral equivalency: Murders and Date Rapists or comparisons like this.
If anything, the date rapist is committing assault. Call it sexual assault, but it’s nowhere near as serious as, say, aggravated assault or Assault with Intent.
The fact that women don’t see this half the time just shows how unreliable they are as neutral observers.
Pray you never have to face them as your “peers”, because their ability to draw moral equivalencies is tragically limited.
Marie–
Also, although feminists hate to hear this, the violent physically forced rape of a virgin who was committed to remain such until her marriage or engagement, particularly if she’s from a community or sub community where that’s important to her “sexual market value”, is far more serious than the acquaintance rape of a slut who’s slept with scores of men. Yes the later should be a crime and sluts too have a right to their sexual integrity, but it’s just not nearly as serious became the harm is nowhere near as great.
I have no idea what it’s like now, but when I went to school, much of what the school considered “rape” wasn’t rape by any public or conventional standard.
Rape meant, to the public, being forced to have sex through physical coercion or being drugged.
To many of the feminists on campus, at the time, rape was any sexual activity which the woman thought was assault, or undesired.
This *included* having slept (absolutely voluntarily) with a man the night before, perhaps after he made promises or was quite pushy (but not violent), and the woman was often enthusiastic – and then later deciding it was rape.
This was shocking and bizarre. The one case I knew about was revolting; the guy sued the school and got a massive payout for it. The feminists still called victory.
He was called a rapist and worse. At the very worst, he was an enthusiastic seducer and the woman was inebriated (as was he).
She tried to ruin his life when she found out what kind of guy he was – later.
But she called it rape, so it was exactly the same as, say, some random guy nailing her at the subway while holding a gun to her head.
I detest this fobbing off of responsibility on men, and then punishing the men for the weaknesses of both sexes.
AND THEN these same feminists have the gall to make moral claims.
There never was a rape epidemic. There’s a lot of unwanted sex going on, but frankly, I knew a few males who are pushed into having sex (usually with their wives) when the very last thing in the world they want to do is have sex with their wives. Ever.
Being browbeaten, cajoled, ridiculed and emotionally blackmailed into having sex isn’t a crime, but being drunk with a woman and both of you voluntarily having sex is.
Fuck, what a twisted world we live in.
Women are just champions of acquiring rights without any thoughts to responsibilities.
Not saying this is you, Marie.
But you say this is a hot topic for you. It’s a hot topic for me, too.
Gorb–
The current feminist effort is to move to a “yes means yes” standard of rape. That is once accused, the guy has to convince the jury or university panel that she explicitly asked for sex. Not only is this not how most seductions or hot sex go down, it’s a radical shifting of the burden of proof and a total undermining of the “proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt” American (and English) criminal law standard.
Gorb–
Only on campus.
So far.
@Slwerneer
I’m going to end this here because I’m getting very upset and your claims are no more backed up than mine. You gave “resources” that was posted 10 years ago(and I gave a more recent one) and another that is aimed at a group of women who are in the minority(a recent study has yet to prove otherwise). No matter how you want to spin it, I don’t believe for one second that the “false rape claims” are any higher than what they are.
Clearly this is a “beat on My chest and scream I hate feminism” blog. You can dislike feminist but brushing rape off (which you’re doing) on feminist and there movement is crossing my ine.
As I said on one more than one occasion, I worked very closely to people who were raped and I don’t think for one single moment this misogyny bullshit you guys are spewing is true.
I won’t deny that there are false rape accusations but I don’t take the word of some silly blog that uses a FEW amount of cases to prove a point. Yes, I do think that those women are bullshit artist who should be jailed for using the law to get some guy caught up BUT I won’t believe for one second that this is the normal , that thousands of women , men, girls and boys who are raped are faking.
I’m sorry but it’s a bunch of bullshit.
As for Gorb with his example-
Murder is bad but Rape shouldn’t be down played and made into a “Well hey, at least he didn’t kill you! That means so much more than being violated!”.
They are both bad and I never put rape above murder, I just pointed to the fact that they are dead and a rape victim lives with it.
As for picking which one is worse. They all are, I won’t say which is worse because they all are to a certain degree. The one with you getting injured and ending up in a coma might be a little higher than most because you could have medical problems for the rest of your life. Compared to regular rape where you can “heal” and murder where you will be dead and won’t feel anything.
No one is saying rape is equivalent but I won’t say that murder is anything worse than rape because there are some rape victims who are killed, some who are disfigured, some who are assaulted and beat. The story of that little girl getting killed and raped, which one of the crimes was worse? The fact that he killed her or the fact that he raped her? Neither because they both are horrible crimes in my eyes.
I’ve heard women say that they’d rather be murdered than survive a rape. I’d rather be dead than have my body violated. At least when I’m killed, I won’t feel a thing and I’ll be in a better place. People who are raped have to deal with that and some of them do go onto kill themselves (I’ve seen one case though) because they’d rather be dead than alive and suffering.
I don’t speak for women only. I stated that I support men who were raped and I’ve come across a few who were ashamed to state that they were raped because they felt like they were less than a man and I welcome with open arms. Always have.
You’re talking about women only. I’m talking about EVERYONE who has been raped. You have babies in South Africa that have been raped. Should that be consider less important than the killing of families?
Yes, There are women who have been held down and rape. I’ve yet to come across those who are upset about being grouped with people in similar situations. In rare occasions you might have women who were raped by anonymous men, that feel resentment towards women who were raped by someone they known or women who didn’t scream . There usually is always a “bond” between them all.
@ Doug
First off, Who are we to call a woman a slut? Also how do we know how many sexual partner she had? There are no statistics on who was a virgin, who was sexually active ,etc.
Your jumping to conclusions about people we don’t know. Let’s go based on what statistics say and not what our own stereotypes of rape victims.
Your going based on physical harm but your also jumping to conclusion since rape victims can be violated through the anus (yes it happens to women) or vagina and you can cause tearing in both, which can lead to bleeding and other things. A virgin will suffer more pain due to their virginity being taken in a brutal manner but that doesn’t take or add onto the rape itself. It’s very rare that a man can “spot a virgin” or “spot a slut” so though it matters, it doesn’t in many ways.
Again, I don’t think it takes away from the rape and it shouldn’t justify/rank which rape is more important. It’s like saying that a gay man’s rape is not as bad as a straight man ones. When in fact they both could be virgins (anal) and face the same tearing and other physical problems. Though I will admit that a straight man will probably face more psychological problems due to the nature of his rape and his life, sexual orientation and whatever relationship he might have.
By Marie’s logic, we should euthanize all rape victims since having to live with it is so much worse than just dying.
@ Gorb (Sorry, I kind of like calling your that)
I don’t think there is a rape epidemic. There never was but I do think that more people are aware of rape and like mentally challenged people, it’s not something we are hiding in our closets because of shame. Some feminist are going over board and count anything as rape but I don’t speak for them nor do I support them. I am for the females and males who were really raped and go to places to get help.
I agree what you said about men being forced into sex when the last thing they want to have is sex. I do know of a lot of women who consider rape to be more of a physical thing. Like someone who is raped can only be done so in a vaginal, anal or oral manner but many fail to realize that men can be raped in a way that society doesn’t view rape as.
If a man is raped in a anal or oral way it’s accepted as rape but if he’s forced to fuck his wife or have had through herself on top of his cock, it’s not rape but rather, he’s in the mood but lazy. (LOL). WHen it’s a females, we are rape victims who got taken advantage of!
I do agree with what you said about some females wants to acquire rights without thoughts of responsibilities. I’m personally am not like that and I only speak/stand up for those who were actually raped and are often dealing with shame and over guilt over something they didn’t do or could control.
Marie – “I’m sorry but it’s a bunch of bullshit.”
The bullshit was your supposition that the criminal justice system isn’t doing enough about rape. Everything sprung from that in an effort to explain why low arrest, prosecution, and conviction rates; nor even short amounts of time served for convictions, are not, in fact, prima facie evidence that law enforcement isn’t taking rape seriously. That false allegations are not as rare as claimed is just one piece of the over-all real explanation of each and every claim made by a woman doesn’t automatically result in a lengthy conviction.
And, yes, I use the more inclusive definition of false report which includes all which are determined not to have happened as claimed – not just those in which the accuser recants without interrogation, as those feminist designed ans execute small-scale studies require for a false designation. Even their “pool” of those classified as “unknown” indicates a high probability that the rate of those which as simply untrue is well over 20%, and possibly as high as 40%).
And as to your recent unfounded allegation of my (our) “brushing off rape”, this is hardly true. I do consider rape a serious crime, with serious consequence. Yet, I do, as also suggested by others, see a “spectrum” of seriousness WRT rapes. You however, as also suggested by others, only seem to only see each and every rape as the most serious of all crimes – no consideration of the actual facts in individual cases.
I’d suggest that it is you who is the unreasonable one here, unwilling to allow that any rape claim should result in anything less than lengthy incarceration, and perhaps (as you stated right off the bat) castration.
“I don’t believe for one second that the “false rape claims” are any higher than what they are.”
“Who are we to call a woman a slut? Also how do we know how many sexual partner she had? There are no statistics on who was a virgin, who was sexually active ,etc.”
“As for picking which one is worse. They all are, I won’t say which is worse because they all are to a certain degree.”
This is some of the dumbest shit I’ve ever read. I really hope English isn’t your first language, and this makes more sense in whatever language you thought it in.
I scanned fast through the comments because this is not a subject of extreme interest to me… but it needs to be mentioned that rape is not just a crime of violence against a woman, It is also a grievous crime against the men related to the victim — her father, male relatives, her husband/boyfriend.
Many rapes, particularly in a war context or sometimes interracially, aren’t so much crimes of lust but are motivated primarily by hate against the men connected to the hapless raped woman.
@ Mike
I’m not stating that we should do that. I’m stating that some of them feel that way about their life after being raped. I would never suggest we should end their lives because it doesn’t solve the problem and it will always come up as long as people are being raped/sexually assaulted. Instead we need programs that are going to help these people and offer them the therapy they need to overcome it.
@ Mike
ad hominem
marked by or being an attack on an opponent’s character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
There is no need to call me dumb because you don’t like the way I write.
I never claimed to be a scholar who can write textbooks.
@Marie,
Again, wooly thinking. Let me illustrate for you a little.
As for picking which one is worse. They all are,
They’re all bad, yes. But do you mean they’re all worse than the other? Thi sis impossible.
I won’t say which is worse because they all are to a certain degree. The one with you getting injured and ending up in a coma might be a little higher than most because you could have medical problems for the rest of your life.
Um, … a *LITTLE* higher?
Ma’am, it’s a *LOT* higher.
Compared to regular rape where you can “heal” and murder where you will be dead and won’t feel anything.
It’s MUCH higher on the scale of serious crimes than being date-raped.
No one is saying rape is equivalent but I won’t say that murder is anything worse than rape because there are some rape victims who are killed, some who are disfigured, some who are assaulted and beat.
You’ve missed my point entirely. It’s quite remarkable.
The truly awful thing about a rape-murder is the murder part.
The horrible thing about the beating-rape problem where the women ends up with permanent injuries is the *beating* part.
The Murder Portion of the crime is MUCH worse than the Rape portion of the crime.
How can you possibly not get that?
In a murder-rape, there were at least two crimes committed. The Murder is, by far and away, the more serious component. It’s not even comparable.
If you murder and rape a woman, the rape itself is almost an afterthought. The *Murder* is the terrifying part.
One is an assault (sexual or otherwise). The other is DEATH.
????
Murder is MUCH MUCH worse than rape.
In a murder-rape crime, it’s the MURDER part that should send the guy to the electric chair, not the rape.
Do you not get this?
The story of that little girl getting killed and raped, which one of the crimes was worse? The fact that he killed her or the fact that he raped her? Neither because they both are horrible crimes in my eyes.
Okay, they’re both horrible.
Let’s parse this out for you more carefully.
1) Man rapes a co-worker after a drunken Christmas party. He uses violence.
2) Man kills another man in an act of random drunken violence at a nightclub.
Which crime should get the more serious punishment?
Answer that. I’ve broken it right down for you.
I’ve heard women say that they’d rather be murdered than survive a rape. I’d rather be dead than have my body violated.
They’re lying. And this means they’re never really thought about it in any serious manner. When the knife is right up against the throat, I’ve heard stories that most women just think: Oh God, Please let me Live and don’t kill me.
That’s the same reaction all humans – male or female- get in that situation.
The fact that you repeat this shows that, typically for most women, you’ve never actually faced anything remotely dangerous.
I’ve faced down men with guns. Pointed at me. Trying to *kill* people.
As in, I could have been *killed*. In my job, I got exposed to all kinds of situations – many of them deadly dangerous (news media).
I’ll tell you straight:
The women I worked with? When someone was pointing a submachine gun at them, threatening them, and one false move would land us dead, I’ll tell you, with an absolute certainty, being raped would be preferable to being killed. One woman actually said this to me: If he wanted to rape us, I’d let him do it if we’d just get out of this alive.
Never, ever go to Colombia to do news. It’s insane.
It’s nice liberal feel-good types like you that continuously refuse to deal with actual reality, and it’s why our laws are so insane.
At least when I’m killed, I won’t feel a thing and I’ll be in a better place.
Um, …
You won’t have the option to feel or not feel or heal or feel shitty. Because you’ll be dead. The option will have been taken away from you.
How can anyone, and I do mean anyone, take what you say seriously if you claim this?
People who are raped have to deal with that and some of them do go onto kill themselves (I’ve seen one case though) because they’d rather be dead than alive and suffering.
Same goes for all kinds of crimes where people survive – even when it’s not a crime (shock, trauma for being a survivor of a crash; etc.).
Rape is absolutely not special in that regard. Imagine surviving after your children were killed in an accident. Live with that.
Your priorities, like most women, are way out of whack. It indicates to me that you’ve never actually had to think about these issues in any depth.
I don’t speak for women only. I stated that I support men who were raped and I’ve come across a few who were ashamed to state that they were raped because they felt like they were less than a man and I welcome with open arms. Always have.
I’m NOT belittling rape:
I’m just pointing out that there’s a scale of crime and seriousness and that rape (not the violence part of rape, just the rape part) is NOWHERE near the top of that scale.
Murder – torture – injury – mass murder – those are near the top of the scale.
Rape is an order of magnitude less important than those.
A murderer should go away forever. A rapist, … it’s just a much lesser crime than actually killing another human being.
if you can’t see this, there’s no moral compass that will possibly guide you.
You’re talking about women only. I’m talking about EVERYONE who has been raped. You have babies in South Africa that have been raped. Should that be consider less important than the killing of families?
The babies?
Not at all. I never, ever said it was unimportant. I also never said it wasn’t a crime.
Man rapes a woman (no violence)
Another Man kills a woman.
If YOU were the judge, how would you partition out the sentence? None of this “It’s all bad, boo hoo hoo” thing – if you’re the judge, YOU need to determine the level of seriousness for each crime.
You can’t argue one thing and then hide behind sophistry. Come out and evaluate the seriousness of the crime.
This is the point I’m making: Rape is not Murder. It’s just not.
Yes, There are women who have been held down and rape. I’ve yet to come across those who are upset about being grouped with people in similar situations. In rare occasions you might have women who were raped by anonymous men, that feel resentment towards women who were raped by someone they known or women who didn’t scream . There usually is always a “bond” between them all.
Sure, …
But my point is:
The crime is not putting an unwanted dick in a pussy.
The crime is assault.
And rape is no more special in this regard than any other kind of assault.
And in fact, most other kinds of assault – the kind that sees men hospitalized for months after being attacked at night etc. – are far, far, far worse than being casually raped by acquaintances.
Crimes against women aren’t more sacred than crimes against men.
And if a murderer gets 7 years in jail, it appalls me that a rapist who date-raped a girl gets 9.
One man MURDERED another HUMAN BEING.
The other guy forcibly assaulted another human being.
There’s just no logic nor moral equivalency there.
That feminists make these arguments is disgusting and illustrates the utter vacuousness – as I said – of any moral argument they ever make.
I never said it shouldn’t be a crime.
But I hardly think the “epidemic” of “Campus Rape” that is claimed to be going on is a major national issue.
There are whole parts of this country that have murder rates similar to places with civil wars. That’s a damned serious issue.
Oh, – but those are males being killed. And they’re not white.
Much less important than some well-to-do well-off upscale women in college who want the freedom to go out at night, get hammered drunk, and then be able to choose if they want to (or not), to accuse men of raping them after they get drunk far from their own beds.
Please.
There are epidemics of all kinds of things in this country. But the “epidemic of rape” and the endless Evil of Men Raping Women is absolutely not one of them.
Just like Chuck notes in this post.
The crime is serious when it happens, but on a national scale, we have much, much bigger fish to fry —
Like Americans *killing* each other.
I refuse to read the comments of another woman who refers men as “males” because I believe that is not recognizing our humanity.
That out, Murder is a bigger crime than rape. Is more important. Period. A life is irreplaceable, but with proper counseling that victims DO GET, they get over it. At least those who have the dignity to not use it as a prop to gain attention.
Marie–
Comparing the severity of crimes is essential in determining sentencing and even in resource allocation.
I don’t take truly physically forced rape, especially stranger rape or acquaintance (but not date) rape, lightly at all.
I do take most claimed date rape far more lightly. A lot of it isn’t rape at all but merely claimed to be that by radical feminists — e.g. tipsy but willing, but has regrets and bemoans “impaired judgment” the next day or week. Much of the rest is substantially the girl’s fault (her impaired judgment is her fault unless she was stealthily drugged), or is too ambiguous or difficult to prove to merit any sort of punishment. Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Feminists literally want to abandon that.
There is very strong evidence that a LOT of rape claims are false. The girl having buyer’s remorse or being tipsy doesn’t make it rape. Her being physically forced when she makes it abundantly clear that she considers what he’s forcing on her to be rape, does.
I’d go as far as say that being chronically bullied by classmates as a whole in one’s early teens is much more psychologically damaging than a single instance of rape.
I think a clear distinction needs to be made between date “rape” and actual rape. There is a world of difference between the two and yet this chart doesn’t break it out. I think if you stick to socializing with men of your same social class (middle class) your chances of being date “raped” are pretty slim. I drank too much and went home with strange men on several occasions and I never had any problems. On the other hand, having a complete stranger grab you on the street or break into your house would be really scary.
I always thought being date “raped” would not be a big deal at all. Being raped on the street or in your house by a complete stranger would be more traumatic, just because I would be wondering if he was going to kill me, plus concerns about HIV. If he didn’t kill me and I didn’t get HIV I think I could get over it. I’ve never been raped, though, so I’m not speaking from experience.
Getting pregnant by a rapist would be pretty bad also, but there are some pills they can give you to prevent that.
Marie—
Yes I call girls who’ve banged scores of guys sluts. Don’t get me wrong, some sorts of sluts can be loads of fun for ONS’s and flings, and as fuck buddies. Not a good risk to serious invest in by e.g. having kids with her though.
No I wasn’t basing the idea that there’s more harm to a virgin who’s determined to remain such until marriage or engagement in being raped than a girl who’s had scores of men upon physical pain to her, but rather on the very likely far greater emotional trauma to her. Her first sexual experience is rape. It’s especially bad when in her communities eyes her “sexual market value” is lowered, as I said. For the slut who’s had scores of men, there’s a sense of violation and lack of control, and revulsion especially to the degree that the man is completely sexually unappealing to her (tons of women do have rape fantasies, but always by alpha males of one sort or another), but it’s likely to be nowhere near as traumatic, and maybe not really that traumatic at all. Just pisses her off, due to it being her’s to determine.
I DO think anal ass rape e.g. in prison is FAR more traumatic to straight men than gay men under almost all circumstance, and unquestionably so other things being equal. The experience for the straight man will often threaten his sense of manhood. The gay man merely feels violated (and in truth submissive gay guys may well get into it after or during the fact).
Actually being vaginally raped, if you aren’t a virgin, probably wouldn’t even hurt that much. Being punched in the face would hurt a lot worse. I think it is just the idea that he could impregnate you which made it be taken so seriously as a crime.
Marie, you seem to be sincere, so I’ll try to be productive.
It’s quite clear that you FEEL strongly about this issue, so much so perhaps that you cannot THINK clearly about the issue. Rape is bad, m’kay? Nobody denies that. But there are tradeoffs involved in trying to prevent it. Examples:
For every hour of prosecutor’s time spent on rape, that’s one less hour than can be spent on all other crimes.
For every dollar spent on rape “awareness” or sexual assault hotlines, that’s one dollar that can’t be spent on anything else.
For every girl you give the “benefit of the doubt”, the chances of an innocent boy being sent to jail increase.
The stricter the laws about date rape/assault are, the harder you make it for boys to interact with girls romantically without fear of legal punishment.
Ultimately, everyone would prefer a society with zero rapes. But even if we spend every dollar, every prosecutor hour, give every girl the benefit of the doubt, and make the laws infinitely strict, some rape will still happen. And long before that, you get time and money wasted, men’s freedom destroyed unnecessarily on things that don’t substantially reduce the amount of rape. At some point we start doing more harm than good.
By the way, my earlier response was not “ad hominem”. Some of the stuff you wrote really was dumb and nonsensical. You cannot argue by FEELING, only by THINKING.
Gorb, Marie
They’re definitely lying or utterly self deluded — generally some of both.
99.9% of Western women these days would rather submit to a rape than be beaten up, or whipped, etc., etc. It’s incredibly easy to (lightly-all it takes) torture a woman into sexual compliance. (It used to be somewhat different because the shame and frequent loss of SMV that pertained after being raped except maybe in the most violent manner are now largely gone in the West.)
Laura–
Yes. But there’s Plan B, as you said, abortion (which MANY women who are opposed to it normally aren’t in he case of rape) and adoption. Still, her getting pregnant beyond Plan B will likely make the rape considerably more traumatic for her.
True Doug. Most women don’t even fight back because they are more scared of being hit by man than being raped by him.
Gorb–
The epidemic of campus rape is an epidemic of feminist absurd redefinition of what’s rape, and then lying and severely intentionally misleading even about that.
There was a serial rapist in Philadelphia about 10-15 years ago. He raped a lot of women and ended up strangling one to death. The one he strangled was the one who fought back. Although I admire her, I’m not really sure that was worth her life. He let the other women live.
I actually think fighting them might turn them on. There might be ways to prevent it though.
Laura–
Agreed.
Of course that’s some serious rape and even without the murder that guy should be locked up for a LONG time.
@ All,
I’m bowing out of this one.
I don’t the energy to try to fight this battle. Evidently people don’t take rape seriously and would rather spit out a bunch of bullshit about much of nothing.
As I said, for the 100th time now, I do work with these people and I’m speaking from a different stand point.
I understand false rape.
I know that rape is sometimes taken out of context but I firmly stand by my claim that those cases are in the minority and don’t occur very often.
@ Laura, I had to touch on your comment because you are speaking from no experience and though physically rape can’t affect you, doesn’t mean that you can’t be mentally and emotionally affected by it. I do hope you will never get raped or known someone who was raped because than you’ll know what I’m trying to say and “i’ll just get over it” won’t fly.
@Doug
Your jumping to conclusions on every case of rape that comes up. What about cases that involve men? Minors? Women aren’t the only ones and as I said there are no claims that can prove that “a lot” of rapes are false. It’s easier for you to write that off as fake or false than to address the fact that people are raped and on average their situations don’t fit your molded one.
@ Gorbs
I see your point but again, I feel like you guys are brushing rape off as not important because of physical aspects of it compared to murder. Murder is messed up and anyone who commit it should be sent to the chair but I won’t say that rape doesn’t matter or a less important/traumatizing.
I’m coming from a different point. As I said before, I work with these people so when you listen to their stories and step inside their shoes, it’s a different story. I never had someone I love murdered and I won’t say that it doesn’t hurt and that they don’t deserve justice because they do.
To me rape and murder are two different things and shouldn’t even be compared. I don’t even know how we digressed in homicide but I have a feelings Chuck and the rest of you are using it to draw attention away from the act of rape simply because feminist are standing behind rape victims and bring justice to their rapist. So naturally you don’t want to stand by anything feminist (from the looks of it) and you will rather respond to their arguments with “homicide is worse” than to address the topic at hand; rape.
Whatever though. My fingers are tired and I’m done fighting an endless battle. I do hope that no one ever meet someone who is rapes or has a close friend who is raped because you’ll finally see where I’m coming from. Word of advice though, stop using scapegoats to avoid commenting on a topic and possibly *gasp* agreeing with a feminist. Murder is horrible and you deserve death but why is anyone attempting to down play rape with it?
Until next time bunnies!
I’ve had sex a few times in ways that could have been twisted into date rape if the girl were malicious enough. The difference between that and real rape woudl have been if the girls had no way out, physically, or if they started saying “no” in a serious and scared voice and I’d have ignored that. Which didn’t happen… and the girls were never angry with me after the fact either.
Marie–
Bullshite. See my quotes above from the FaleRapeSociety website referring to fair mined studies that do just that. Or a least present compelling evidence.
As well, yes of course REAL rape does occur too often. No one here and certainly not me has denied that. I told you several times I take real rape seriously. What I don’t take seriously anymore after looking into it is the radical feminist claim of a “rape epidemic” on university campuses. Their data is bullshite, as I explained above.
@Marie,
I understand this is all new to you and you rarely get a different perspective.
Chuck was just point out that rape is singled out for being more devastating and, well, there are bigger fish to fry. Not that rape isn’t a crime or isn’t important, not at all, but that there’s a lot of other things that are – frankly, more serious to worry about.
I see your point but again, I feel like you guys are brushing rape off as not important because of physical aspects of it compared to murder. Murder is messed up and anyone who commit it should be sent to the chair but I won’t say that rape doesn’t matter or a less important/traumatizing.
Rape is much less traumatizing.
Death – murder- is the ultimate trauma. It’s so traumatic, it kills you.
Rape as a crime is just focused on as if it’s the worst thing in the world. It ain’t. Not even the rape of men. I’d never want it done to me; but murdering me, wow, that would definitely be much worse. Permanently injuring me, oh yeah.
Chuck was just making a simple point, that’s all. His point was good.
I’m coming from a different point. As I said before, I work with these people so when you listen to their stories and step inside their shoes, it’s a different story. I never had someone I love murdered and I won’t say that it doesn’t hurt and that they don’t deserve justice because they do.
I’m just saying this: there are massive crimes and middling crimes and sad crimes and unimportant crimes.
My place was broken into once. The thieves took as much as possible, but were caught. I still felt violated.
But should I get to stone the thieves to death?
No.
Same goes for the time when I saw a guy beaten but not seriously injured. Should the perpetrator go to jail for 20 years? No.
“Date” rapists or guys who perpetrate sexual assault have sometimes gone to jail for longer than murderers. It’s insane.
Murder is the ultimate trauma. It gets no more traumatic than that.
To me rape and murder are two different things and shouldn’t even be compared.
We compared it for sentencing of criminals. That’s when they have to be compared.
For example, murderers should get harsher sentences than car thieves.
Etc.
I don’t even know how we digressed in homicide but I have a feelings Chuck and the rest of you are using it to draw attention away from the act of rape simply because feminist are standing behind rape victims and bring justice to their rapist. So naturally you don’t want to stand by anything feminist (from the looks of it) and you will rather respond to their arguments with “homicide is worse” than to address the topic at hand; rape.
Not at all. Feminists should stand behind the victims.
It’s just that feminists only seem to care about rape as a crime. There are *plenty* of other crimes to care about, many of them way more serious.
And you agreed with me, I know, so I won’t pick on you – that feminists often conflate different “kinds” of rape and sexual assault, which makes it all fuzzy and meaningless.
I acknowledge that you understand this. Peace.
Whatever though. My fingers are tired and I’m done fighting an endless battle. I do hope that no one ever meet someone who is rapes or has a close friend who is raped because you’ll finally see where I’m coming from. Word of advice though, stop using scapegoats to avoid commenting on a topic and possibly *gasp* agreeing with a feminist. Murder is horrible and you deserve death but why is anyone attempting to down play rape with it?
Until next time bunnies!
I never wanted to downplay rape – but Chuck made some good points in this very well-written post.
Chuckie Chuckie Chuckie. Too much porn has desensitized to the pain that women go through when raped. You are a pervert and the lowest of the low. I have always been weary of white marxist liberals like yourself that is obessesed with sex and booze. I bet you love going to Brazil and Thailand to prey on little girls. Men like you don’t deserve to live in America.
“Black Male” is a lame troll. I see what he’s trying to do, but Roissy’s troll Biting Beaver had a similar act but was funnier.
this is not hyperbole: i personally know of more false rape claims than actual rapes.
Rape is taking the only power that woman has. That’s why it is so psychologically damaging to women. Then it’s diluted to how dare he even touch me and we have sexual assault on the flimsiest of pretences.
How dare he don’t pull it out when I lost interest? How dare he keep on going if I was hurting? Even that’s now rape. It’s so leaning into triviality and on and on that any sane man would see where one is going with this rape BS.
Just about every law passed is about being in control of the sex act, if not, then cry rape. Sex my way or the highway, backed up by law.
Another issue that should be acknowledged is that most women probably aren’t attractive enough to inspire a man to rape them. Very young, pretty girls are definitely much more vulnerable and need to be more careful and looked after more. Most women don’t have much too worry about, though.
“Most women don’t have much too worry about, though.”
lol then they worry about that they are not beautiful enough to be raped.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin#Later_life
I do medical rape exams in the emergency department setting. My gut-o-meter has signaled “fraud” in only one of 40-50 cases. In many, many, many cases, it signals “poor judgment” and often “impulsive crying woman seeks solace from stranger.”
I have to comment on this post.
Seriously, that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard in my life time .
“Only young and pretty girls have a chance of getting raped”!!
Ugly chick? Oh Babydoll you’re lying and feeling shame about it.
BULLSHIT! What’s attractive to you isn’t attractive to other people for one.
Also, rape has a lot to do with control and dominance. Some people who are raped can’t even remember seeing their attackers face because they were possibly faced down.
Most rapes probably occur in the dark where the attacker and victim can barely see each other. Unless it’s a more personal rape which means that it wasn’t anonymous and the person knows you. Which also has nothing to do with attractiveness or our definition of it.
Another thing, what’s the excuse of men who rape children and other males? Are they attractive individuals?
Are prison rapes based on who’s attractive or dominance?
Are the rapes of those Catholic Kids based on their attractiveness or the naive nature and “control” the priest had over them?
http://www.rapecrisis.org.nz/content.aspx?id=53
Learn something darling!
@ Gorbs
I am new to this. I’m trying to understand it, really I am, but it’s just coming across as downplaying.
Maybe it’s because the topic of rape hits close to home for me.
[Chuck: Marie, I'm not trying to downplay your experiences or those of the people you know. But I feel that you fall victim to a fallacy that many people fall for: objectifying your subjective experiences. When something is personal it takes on a whole new level of importance, but how should the importance to you translate into paramount importance to someone like me? I *try* to seperate my subjective biases when thinking about these issues because we are talking about policies, funding, sympathies, etc that are put upon our society writ large. And the truth is that this nation only has the physical and psychical capacity to handle a certain amount of advocacy for rape or the environment or the poor or education, etc. So it becomes a war of ideas and idealists: whoever makes their case the best gets the goodies. One tactic by which rape awareness promoters do this is by shaming anyone who even questions the validity of charts like RAINN's or by questioning the behavior of some of the victims. If we are duly shamed, we'll easily acquiesce to the whim of the rape awareness promoters which thereby allows the funding and awareness to take hold.]
You say it isn’t traumatizing but I think that rape is more traumatizing or equally since getting killed can’t really bring the actual victim trauma since they’re dead. [Chuck: You mistake the reasons for punishment and imprisonment. Those occur so that the perp doesn't have an inventive - or lack of disincentive - to commit the act again. So when we use crime deterrents we should place the heaviest penalty on those criminals whose crimes are least desirable *going forward*. YOu have to ask yourself, while sitting there right now, having neither been raped nor murdered, which one would be most heinous to you. And, of course, we have to apply the same logic over all of society.
In the case of a drunken-rape, the woman largely feels anger and all of those other feelings towards herself - no? Even if she uttered "no" she still can't feel good about putting herself in that position. I've done the walk of shame before; it's not fun. I often hate myself for it. But now we have advocates coming in to tell those women that they aren't at fault. It's all the man's fault. But that's BS. And it demeans the aggressive rape claims where a woman was blatantly attacked. That woman can't blame anyone but the attacker.
But back to the original point, murder is something you'd least like to happen. Violent rape comes in under that. Date rape comes in somewhere near getting hit by a bottle in the face at a party.]
I don’t know what goes through their heads when they do realize “omg I’m about to die” but everyone dies differently so it’s hard to generalize but rape in my opinion is traumatizing because you can have this feeling of “why me? I do this and I’m good at that but yet I’ve been raped”.
[Chuck: This is just stupid. Fucking stupid. Especially if the stats that 84% of rapes occur with a man the woman knew, most often the thinking during a rape is often "why did I do that? I'm so stupid, oh yeah, I've been raped."
Also, you're decrying my analysis as some sort of way to intellectually wriggle away from feminism, but look at yourself. You've stooped to rationalizing, explaining away, and poo-pooing murder.]
I understand and I respect your opinion but try telling that to a man who was raped or a woman or minor who was raped that their justice is less important. It doesn’t register because they feel that being raped is the worst thing that can happen to them and some would rather die than be raped and live with it.
[Chuck: I didn't explain in my post from today just how little my 'justice' is valued. I'm jumping through legal hoops just to get the cops to process my case - one in which I suffered real damage and bled from the face and racked up a couple thousand dollars in medical bills.]
It’s like people who say I’d rather die a quick death than to be tortured for hours and live with that pain.
You’er right murderers should get harsher sentences than thieves and I think that rapist need harsher sentences and possibly more help to stop them from committing the crime again. An example is that sex offender in California (John Albert Gardner)who was a molester that got released and went on to murder that High School girl.
Jeffery Dahmer who was a sex offender who went on to murder.
That little girl named Jessica Lunsford from Florida was killed by a man who was a sexual predator. So I don’t think that we should put rape low on that “importance” pyramid. Some sexual predators go onto murder actual people and then what? They finally get our attention because they took a life despite the fact that they previously raped someone and did a crime we felt was’nt traumatizing?
While I do agree that some cases of rape aren’t actually rape and just women who call it rape, I think that a majority of them are true and cases pop up every month about the justice systems loose leash on sex offenders who go onto commit other crimes.
Not all sex offenders do go onto commit other crimes but I wouldn’t leave any breathing room for another crime to possibly happen.
I don’t speak for feminist, I just care about those who were raped. The justice system need to reexamine its penalties on rape and the treatment these rapist receive after being released.
[Chuck: Fine. I care about rape, but I care about other crimes too. There are other focuses in life and other criminals to deal with.]
Marie–
You actually have a boyfriend? Geez, what a mangina asshole he must be!!
Marie,
I’m a 35 year old woman and I am much less likely to be raped than a 15 year old girl would be, that’s a fact.
I just don’t think it makes any sense or is fair to lump a date “rape” statistic in with much more serious crimes which is what it looked like those charts Chuck put up were doing. These crimes you are referring to are horrible and I don’t think anyone is saying otherwise.
I think Marie is getting upset because she thinks we are being insensitive to what are horrible crimes like some of the ones she described. I don’t think anyone on here thinks they aren’t. Honestly, I don’t know how many men have been prosecuted for date “rape”. I don’t know anyone that has been or anyone the has claimed they were date “raped”. I don’t really have much personal experience with it, it sounds like Marie does. I just think we are talking about different things.
@Marie,
from where do you get your data? My boots-on-the-ground experience with rape patients in my commmunity, fresh off the ground or floor, tells me they are all young, mostly teens or early twenties. they are ordinary looking. they are either intoxicated or crying, and make poor judgments. A few are toddlers or preschoolers exposed to mother’s boyfriend-du-jour.
Marie, do you get your data from newspaper headlines?
Laura, do you get your data from men’s rights blogs? you sound mentally retarded.
I just think that certain feminist organizations are alarmist when it comes to the threat of sexual violence against women. Most men aren’t rapists. They present the facts in a misleading way. Treating every act of sexual assault as equally wrong trivializes the ones that are really heinous. Luckily most people have common sense and are able to see things in shades of grey.
jz,
What did I say that you have a problem with?
Laura, you comments here daily parrot comments by others. Have you ever had an original thought in your life?
No, I’m not very smart.
Yes, I do have a boyfriend.
A mangina? No, Sorry to break it too you.
He is very supportive of rape victims and we actually meet at a center that deals with Rape and Sexual Abuse victims. Like myself, Rape hits very close to home for him.
One thing I will agree with Marie about is that the criminal justice system probably can be frustrating for someone who is the victim of a crime. I’ve heard that from people. It sounds like Chuck is dealing with it now.
@Marie,
I’ll give it to you that you’re trying.
I am new to this. I’m trying to understand it, really I am, but it’s just coming across as downplaying.
That’s because anything that doesn’t discuss something like rape exactly the way you discuss it comes across as downplaying. I’m guessing this is because in your world and environment, you’ve rarely heard otherwise.
I’m not downplaying rape: I’m just taking issue with this one point, that rape is the moral/criminal equal of many other crimes, like murder, or brutal assault.
Rape can include both of those – but it’s not the same.
Most rapes are perpetrated by men the women know. Many of them are in domestic or school situations. And many of them occur when the woman is drunk, on drugs or otherwise incapacitated. In many of these circumstances, the actual physical trauma is not as serious as a full-on physical assault.
The mental trauma – well, the mental trauma from being beaten nearly to death is pretty bad, too.
I’m just pointing out how you seem to be unable to draw distinctions on a moral or intellectual level.
Maybe it’s because the topic of rape hits close to home for me.
Perhaps you’re unable to have anything approaching an objective opinion. This crime seems worse than any other because you deal with it. Well, if you were dealing with, say, property crimes, you might feel the same way, then.
But it still doesn’t make your position any more tenable.
You say it isn’t traumatizing
I *didn’t* say that. You’re so immersed in your own dialectic that you’re impugning things to what I say – basicallym in your mind, you’ve constructed a straw man biult from my statements and are attacking that straw man.
My sugestion would be to closely read what I write, and not to assume other positions I may have based on that. Because never did I say it wasn’t traumatic – at all.
I said that other kinds of crime were often much more physically traumatic – like getting a rock dropped on you from 25 storeys and acquiring brain damage. That’s more traumatic in a whole range of ways.
but I think that rape is more traumatizing or equally since getting killed can’t really bring the actual victim trauma since they’re dead.
And this is where you lose your perspective.
By this measure, a raped woman is better off being raped – and killed – than just raped.
The criminal is lessening her trauma by killing her.
That’s absurd, of course. She’s dead. That’s the ultimate trauma. As I pointed out, “having to live with it” comes with the benefit of “living” with it.
Once you’re dead, your life is snuffed out. That’s trauma taken to its ultimate end.
It’s Ultimate Trauma.
I don’t know what goes through their heads when they do realize “omg I’m about to die” but everyone dies differently so it’s hard to generalize but rape in my opinion is traumatizing because you can have this feeling of “why me? I do this and I’m good at that but yet I’ve been raped”.
Of course this is traumatizing.
Let’s transpose this.
What is a woman had to watch a man torture, kill and mutilate her husband? Or her children? How would she feel?
Which would she find more traumatic? Being raped by a friend a a party, or seeing murder happen to someone she loves?
Obviously rape can be traumatic, but you need to put it into perspective when looking to punish crimes.
A murderer MUST be punished far more severely than a sex offender. Murder is, on the scale of crimes, pretty much near the very bottom. Rape is nowhere near murder. Very little is.
I understand and I respect your opinion but try telling that to a man who was raped or a woman or minor who was raped that their justice is less important.
I didn’t say it was not something the cops should do something about: Just that we think there’s an epidemic of this going on.
We focus so much time and effort on it. How many murder cases go unsolved every year?
It doesn’t register because they feel that being raped is the worst thing that can happen to them and some would rather die than be raped and live with it.
Give them the choice of dying right there and see how quickly they rethink that.
I’ll bet you money they’ll retract that opinion awfully fast.
It’s like people who say I’d rather die a quick death than to be tortured for hours and live with that pain.
Then offer them that choice. I’ll bet even money not one person who’s been raped takes it.
You’er right murderers should get harsher sentences than thieves and I think that rapist need harsher sentences and possibly more help to stop them from committing the crime again. An example is that sex offender in California (John Albert Gardner)who was a molester that got released and went on to murder that High School girl.
I think rapists should be tried in criminal courts, but I think rape needs to be narrowly and clearly defined in very explicit terms, and that the perpetrators have to be presumed innocent until proven guilty – like any other accused.
This often doesn’t happen in the real world. When a woman cries rape, there’s often a witch hunt.
There are all kinds of false-rape accusations leveled at men by women. And the courts and the system just brutalize these men. They’re assumed guilty until proven innocent. If you don’t believe me, look at the stories of some of these men, often just college kids who got drunk (the women too). Or the stories of guys in prison for 10 years (!) for crimes they couldn’t have committed, when DNA evidence is sought.
It’s shocking.
Lots of these women are traumatized and there are plenty of false accusations to go around.
This is why I have a litmus test for rape accusations:
1) Were you physically restrained
2) Did he threaten you with physical harm
3) Were you physically prevented from moving (drugs, etc.)
If a woman has sex with a guy and then regrets it, … this is not rape. Ever.
And yet, on campuses, most “rapes” are rapes of this kind.
Jeffery Dahmer who was a sex offender who went on to murder.
Sex offenders are often murderers who haven’t graduated yet, of course.
But these two aspects of their crimes are distinct.
That little girl named Jessica Lunsford from Florida was killed by a man who was a sexual predator. So I don’t think that we should put rape low on that “importance” pyramid. Some sexual predators go onto murder actual people and then what? They finally get our attention because they took a life despite the fact that they previously raped someone and did a crime we felt was’nt traumatizing?
You’re talking about very dangerous violent-stranger rape.
But feminists lump all rape and sexual assault together. I’ve already given my position on violent sexual assault.
It’s the fuzzy area that annoys me.
While I do agree that some cases of rape aren’t actually rape and just women who call it rape, I think that a majority of them are true and cases pop up every month about the justice systems loose leash on sex offenders who go onto commit other crimes.
I think you need to do some research into stats for this one.
Not all sex offenders do go onto commit other crimes but I wouldn’t leave any breathing room for another crime to possibly happen.
You can only prosecute for crimes that have already been committed or as in the process of being committed. Not for future ones.
I don’t speak for feminist, I just care about those who were raped. The justice system need to reexamine its penalties on rape and the treatment these rapist receive after being released.
I think treatment for some of these fellows is out of the question.
For the hard-core rapists, being around other people is just too dangerous for people.
Maybe they need to never get out of jail again (some of them).
I just want to clarify something I said. The comment about only pretty women having to worry about being raped. JZ even said that most of the rape victims he sees are in their teens or early twenties. Maybe they aren’t great beauties, but women in their teens and early twenties are the most highly valued in the sexual market place. It would make sense that they would be more likely to be raped. I heard a man on NPR once say that a lot of women think rape has to do with some deep seated hatred of women, but that in a lot of case the man just really wants to have sex with them. That is why I made the comment about less attractive women not being as vulnerable. I’m 35 years old and I really don’t worry too much about being a rape victim because I think it’s unlikely. Obviously not everyone who is raped is beautiful, but I guarantee most of them are on the higher end of sexual attractiveness (mainly younger) which was my point. JZ comments back this up.
I also see why men have such trouble arguing about this topic. You can get painted as someone who supports the likes of Jeffrey Dahmer, when in reality you would be happy to put someone like him to death. It is not an easy topic to discuss at all.
Rapeis driven by two main motivations, not always both in the same case:
1) attraction to the victim. A rapist might not necessarily be as “picky” as the average man but lust is still the main motivation
2) hatred for the *men* associated with the victim’s ethnic or racial group. This is comon in wartime or some interrcial rapes.
Marie–
Yeah. As in the penalties for certain kinds of so called rape are often way too harsh for the alleged harm done. Not talking violent stranger rape here.
E.g. this case where a woman agree to have sex with her friends husband, they began the act are were in full penetration intercourse for a good while, and then she announces ‘no, stop, this isn’t right, your wife’s my good friend’. The man does stop but not instantly. It’s a matter of dispute as to how long it takes him to stop but the bid asked as a few seconds and 30 seconds. Judge gives him 4 years. (It also later turns out that the whole thing was a setup between the two women who wanted the husband out of the house and to give up the house, but that’s a side issue for my purposes. (They only got 7 months for sending him to jail for 4 years – most false rape accusers serve almost no time at all.)
How about prosecuting false rape accusers? That virtually NEVER happens, due to feminist pressure against “chilling” rape victims. Well they SHOULD
Well women SHOULD be chilled enough to stop making false rape accusations.
Marie
No that isn’t a fact. It’s a feminist lie.
It’s based upon first of all the assumption that every woman who claims she was raped actually was and that she or the evidence available names the right assailant. It’s actually WAY worse than that because it conflates rape and sexual abuse which can and often does include things as trivial as a second or two of unwanted fanny touching.
Further they come up with their 39% of attacks are reported to police by nothing more serious than surveys. Which are worded with definitions of rape that aren’t the legal definition.
It’s intentional feminist lying. Which feminists do all the time.
A woman who makes false rape accusations is basically flipping the bird to every woman who was actually raped.
She should be dragged out in the street, shaved of her hair, and forced to walk from one end of town to the other naked, with a sign on her that says, “I falsely claimed I was raped”.
Absolutely.
@Laura little parrot,
I am a woman. You readily accepted my harsh comments toward you, thinking I was a man. Please explain how or why you became such a slobbering lapdog for extreme male viewpoints. Have you never had a positive female mentor in your life? Was your father a demigod?, and your mother a shameful mess? Did the men in your childhood have all the influence and prestige? I don’t understand you.
JZ, that which you call “a slobbering lapdog for extreme male viewpoints” used to be called “normal” as little as 25 years ago.
I kinda like Laura’s input. She makes short and often startlingly spot-on observations.
@PA, No. many of the extreme views in the manosphere were not normal 25 years ago.
Your white-knighting of Laura duly noted, I’d love to see her speak for herself.
The expression “white knighting” is waaaaay misused. Do you even know what it means? I’ll tell you: it means to put oneself at risk or disadvantage to assist an undeserving woman. And there I thought I was just anonymously agreeing with some anonymous commenter who goes by “Laura”, who may or may not be a 30-something married woman.
And you’re wrong — most of today’s leftie/feminist/multiculty beliefs would have been considered insanely extreme in the time-span between the dawn of humanity until about 25 years ago.
jz,
A lot of times I intentionally write from one perspective and I want someone else to come in and give the other side. I know I’m not the best writer and I probably did spend too much time reading Spearhead. Some of the men that write over there are very reasonable and super smart and I learned a lot from reading their article and comments. Some of the men commenting are too extreme in their anti-woman views in my opinion. I actually respect both men and women equally. I am willing to defer to your views on rape victims since you work directly with them. I personally don’t know anyone who has been raped or accused of rape.
PA, you couldn’t resist. Rather than allow Laura to speak for herself, you couldn’t resist the urge to infantilize her and speak on her behalf.
You shifted the subject from extreme manosphere views, to extreme lefty/feminist views. Let’s stay on topic.
@Laura,
I actually respect both men and women equally.
I am pleased that you are not hopeless.
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