First off, have you ever noticed that stock photos and video footage of fat people only show the people’s bodies and not their faces?
Media companies only show fat bodies because they don’t want to get sued by fat people for libel and defamation. What a world we live in. We can’t even shame fatties, even when they need our shame most, for fear of lawsuit.
But since we’re on the topic of fat people, I’d like to discuss an article and a piece of research that vindicates the Roissy worldview. I’d normally leave such a juicy morsel for Roissy himself to address, but its a dog-eat-dog world, and I’m running low on Kibble*.
The piece of research out of some university somewhere discovered that:
Scientists say being fat can be bad for the bedroom, especially if you’re a woman.
In a new study, European researchers found obese women had more trouble finding a sexual partner than the minimal-weight counterparts, though the same wasn’t true for obese men, and were four times as likely to have an unplanned pregnancy.
Fat women have less romantic success than skinny women and fat men. Wow. In other news, New Years Eve will be lame.
For anyone who follows evolutionary psychology, Roissy, or the teachings of Game, you know that, in general, men and women are attracted to different qualities in their mates. Men are attracted to beauty and youth while women are attracted to status and wealth. Of course, these aren’t entirely iron-clad, but they are true enough such that the differences show up in scientific studies. Thus, skinnier women have romantic success; fat men aren’t as affected by their weight because women aren’t as concerned with their partner’s weight; fat women support the vibrator market. And the local humane society.
Here are some numbers to help drive the point home:
Obese women were 30% less likely than normal-weight women to have had a sexual partner in the last year. In comparison, there was little difference among obese men and normal-weight men as to whether they found a sexual partner.
It is doubtful that these obese men are pulling women of as high quality as normal-weight men, but the point is that they are outscoring obese women. You won’t hear this discussed without the cover of the umbrella of science because it indicates that attraction and human behavior is biologically determined. In other words, science can be mean and callous, but generally observational people can’t. If human attraction is biologically determined, it means that some people are born losers. But too many people have a vested interest in convincing us that nobody is born a loser – only society can make people losers because society is a horribly narrow construct that needs to be demolished.
The interpreters of the research piece try to avert the truth:
Experts said the problems faced by obese people were probably due to a combination of physical problems linked to obesity as well as other issues, like low self-esteem and social prejudices.
Obese people are at higher risk anyway for diabetes, depression and urinary stress incontinence, all of which can hinder sex. If people are extremely heavy, they might also have muscular or skeletal problems that make sex challenging.
The researchers found that obese women were less likely to ask for birth control services, and thus, four times more likely to accidentally get pregnant. Pregnant fat women and their babies also faced a higher risk of complications and death than normal-weight women.
The researchers and the article writer try to replay the same worn vinyl by pretending that the dearth of sex partners for fat women is due to some social stigma against fat people or because they can’t physically perform sex. Not that such an excuse grants fat people much of a free pass to ignore reality, but it does skirt the issue nonetheless. The truth is that fat women aren’t having sex because men aren’t attracted to them, and they don’t throw their meat poles in fat womens’ direction. It has less to do with the woman’s self-esteem or her bed sores though I will admit that it is hard to perform doggystyle when the woman is physically unable to wipe her own ass.
The researchers undermine their whole line of argument by writing this:
Wellings and colleagues found obese men and women with a partner were no different from normal-weight people in terms of how often they had sex.
So the question, it seems, isn’t about the physical ability to perform sex (which actually surprises me) but about the fat woman’s ability to get a man to strip naked in front of them and prepare for lift-off. Fat women can’t produce the prerequisite for sex: boners. There is no use being nice about it, and there is no use cutting off fat womens’ heads in stock photos for articles discussing the obese. Because the head isn’t the problem. It’s the body.
*Blogging has so consumed my mind that when I see something interesting on TV or in the news or have a blog-worthy conversation with someone, I start nodding and saying “That’s kibble, baby. Kibble.” It’s my new take on the Seinfeld character Kenny Bania, and it’s really hurting my social life.
Like this:
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The exception being fat women with pretty faces.
Hi Chuck,
Interesting topic! Here’s my take on it:
For starters, let’s say for the sake of argument that “shame” was brought to bear on fat Women; how would we do that? [Chuck: Laughing and pointing usually works.] How would we be able to measure, pardon the pun, its effectiveness? [[Chuck: Fewer fat people.] And for that matter, what is fat? [Chuck: This is a fair question. I can't set out a precise definition of fat, but I know it when I see it. The lady pictured in my post is fat. Serena Williams is not.] I ask because this doesn’t seem to be a set in stone kind of thing, and since we both have an interest in HBD, we know that all people aren’t built the same. Black Women seem to have denser bone and muscle mass than do White Women, all things being equal; and this can’t help but to have at least some impact in terms of their appearance. Someone like say, Marion Jones or Serena Williams – two very fit atheletes – could very well be “fat” were they White. So, I think we have to take such things into account here.
And again, how would we be able to launch a “Shame Offensive”? That’s something I’ve never seen laidout, even by Roissy. In fact, given his relentless way of posting on this and related topics, one would think that, given his reach with his blog, that it would have had some impact, at least locally in his DC area. It would be interesting to see some kind of study there along these lines and see what we get.
As for the faces, I don’t know if you heard about a story the NYT did a while back about Women’s faces and how Men responded to them. It was a very interesting read. In a nutshell, when it came to longterm pair bonding, Men preferred a Woman with a more attractive face, whereas if she was just gonna be a booty call, her body had more importance over her face. The writers of the NYT piece suggested that this could point to two reproductive strategies wrt Men and Women.
I say all that because as I was reading your post and tyour pointing out how the faces of the fat folks were left out, I got to thinking about something else that I broached over at Susan Walsh’s blog Hooking Up Smart, but which neither she, nor her readers, wanted to touch with the proverbial ten foot pole – and that’s this:
What if your kid is ugly? What do you do about it? Do you sit them down and tell them the deal, so as to prepare them for what is surely to come as they come of age, and perhaps, for a way to get around it – or do you ignore it?
I thonk that’s ultimately a heck of a lot more important than the fat thing, because let’s face it, in most cases, that is an issue that can be addressed – whereas, if you’re just ugly or even Jane Austen-homely, that’s something that can’t be addressed, unless one considers plastic surgery, which can be quite expensive.
If you had a homely daughter Chuck – what would you say to her as she enters the world as s young adult? I mean, if she’s looking like Susan Boyle, do you face that issue head on, or do you ignore it and tell her that beauty is on the inside?
[Chuck: This is obviously something I can't know until I cross that bridge, but I understand your point. It would be tough to have that conversation with an ugly daughter. I would probably come to adopt a "beauty is on the inside" mentality, but I think that I already believe in that policy. All of the argumentation against fat-acceptance and against "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" on my part is that outward beauty is pretty much immutable. The problem today is that certain people try to tell us that beauty is on the inside as if that has any impact on external decisions made by other people. Beauty, in that case, is not on the inside. It is almost completely on the outside.
I just think it's stupid that people try to combine the two and pretend that we're discussing the same thing. I think an inwardly beautiful person is a better thing than an outwardly beautiful person, but unattractive people want to have it all by conflating the former with the latter.]
Comments?
O.
Blogging has so consumed my mind
Haha. That’s the lot of an intelligent man in an intellectually undemanding line of work. In my case, I work in a cognitively demanding environment, but one that has peaks and valleys of activity. When I’m really busy and challenged, I rarely comment, or write frivolous comments on blogs, often with lots of typos and bad syntax. During relative lulls, I tend to post more thoughtful and well-crafted comments.
What if your kid is ugly? What do you do about it?
Through media, parental pressure, and peer pressure. And for girls, most peer pressure comes from other girls.
And for that matter, what is fat?
Men know it when they see it. Women know it when the men their dating target-population find them unattrative.
What if your kid is ugly? What do you do about it?
If it’s through no fault of his own then you let him know in no uncertain terms that you like him just the way he is. But if it’s due to his slovenliness and gluttony, you ‘motivate’ him to change his ways.
My second citation of Obsidian above, “What if your kid is ugly? What do you do about it?”
… was supposed to say “And again, how would we be able to launch a “Shame Offensive”?”
Br o Obsidian asked:
If you had a homely daughter Chuck – what would you say to her as she enters the world as s young adult? I mean, if she’s looking like Susan Boyle, do you face that issue head on, or do you ignore it and tell her that beauty is on the inside?
Comments?
Menelik says:
lool Bro Obsidian throwing the cat in amongst the pigeons again! Clearly, it is easier to sneer ‘n’ smirk in the direction of fat or ‘ugly’ people but not so easy to empathise with, and to imagine them as our beloved son or daughter.
Can’t wait for the comments!
Menelik Charles
London UK
PS Bro O what’s happening with your website? Got all the relevant posts together. Shall I just send them?
Can’t wait for the comments!
Hey Menelik, I answered you ugly/fat child conundrum in a comment just before yours. Did you read it?
Hi PA,
yes I did, shortly after I finished writing my comments. My response to it is this:
Bro Obsidian’s “what if your kid is ugly? What do you do about it?” comment was in no way attached to the objective of launching a “Shame Offensive”?” (as I think you’re suggesting) but was instead an attempt to induce within the minds of the self-satisfied, and seemingly privileged, the possibility of them fathering a fat or ugly off-spring.
Certainly for said people to entertain such a thought might put a break on some of the lazy socio-cultural assumptions they make regarding apparently fat people being physically unattractive (‘Buffie the Body’s’ alleged fat is very different to Roseanne Barr’s fat: and evidently more attractive too).
Consider, for example, how often women like Halle Berry considered themselves “ugly” because of the prevailing social norm of ‘white being alright, brown sticking around, and Black having to get back’. Consider also the enormous struggle of Black parents (and those of bi-racial children) have in convincing their children of their aesthetic and racial value.
The “conundrum” many Black parents have is how to convince their children of their personal worth without informing them of the wider reality of white society’s (as transmitted via the mass media) malevolent racist sentiments towards people of colour (since such a lesson in reality may leave one’s child embittered even before they’ve began to live).
So the “fat/ugly child conundrum” was actually posed by Bro Obsidian in the questions he posed here:
“if you had a homely daughter Chuck – what would you say to her as she enters the world as s young adult? I mean, if she’s looking like Susan Boyle, do you face that issue head on, or do you ignore it and tell her that beauty is on the inside?”
Again, I say,it ha absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with inducing shame, and everything to do with presenting Chuck with dilemma much closer to his hoe and heart (an one which called for empathy over ignorance).
[Chuck: Menelik Charles, I made a very simple analysis that you're reading too much into. A study came out (take it with a grain of salt if you must) that found that obese women are less romantically successful than obese men or thin women. This isn't as much a referendum on obesity per se, but more of a spotlight on HBD truths that are ignored in the media. Namely, there are sex differences in attraction patterns. This would be a striking blow to the feminist mantra that there are no innate gender differences. Women seek status and don't care as much about looks while men mainly care about beauty and youth.
Furthermore, as a form of fat-acceptance, the researchers make all sorts of excuses for this finding by pretending that obese people are physically unable to *perform* sex - as if that is the only thing holding them back from engaging in it. That would be bad enough as is, but they try to pull the wool over our eyes by pretending that there are as many suitors lining up for these people as any other body type.
Then they turn around and say that when obese people are in relationships i.e. when they are able to wrangle up a partner they are just as sexually active. Which kind of shows us that the problem for fat people isn't their physical or mental state as much as it is the desire of other people to have sex with them.
I didn't bring up race in this context and had no intention of discussing it.]
Menelik Charles
London UK
Correction…I meant home and heart NOT hoe and heart lol
I think Susan Boyle might have some mental deficiencies as well as not being attractive.
Right. Everyone is always talking about how ugly Halle Berry is.
I don’t see many black kids walking around with low self esteem, although maybe I’m not good at recognizing the signs of it.
@ Lara,
please, trust me, sweetie, Halle Berry grew up believing she was ugly because of her African origins.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/896678/posts
Menelik, whose fault is Halle’s alleged low self-esteem?
Society’s, or her mother’s choice of fathers for her daughter?
What is the point of the (rhetorical) question, sir?
The question is a response to the interesting and provicative points you made; you may feel free to answer it via a comment here or privately in your own mind.
Menelik,
I do think having a good father around helps develop character in a girl. I don’t think Halle Berry’s father was involved in her life at all. I remember someone asking Michelle Obama if she ever felt insecure about her looks or being really tall and she said that her father and her brother always thought she was smart and funny and admired her for being a fast runner and she never had any self esteem issues because of that. It also helped that her father was married to a black woman who looked like her.
@ PA,
you know you engage with people as though an aging, morally-jaded, intelligence agent, out of some spy novel? I mean, so covertly conspiratorial in your response above: It’s weird!
Anyway, yeah, I utterly free to answer the question here and now. My answer is as follows: to answer your question specifically as it relates to Halle Berry is to narrow the issue down to personal responsibility when clearly my post alluded to a wider, collective responsibility. To this end, Ms Berry was merely intended as an illustrative example of the misery of not being seen as ‘normal’ by the wider, whiter, society.
Sure, fat people are deemed ugly in Western society. But among some of its minority populations the fat is distributed around muscle of some women to such a pleasing extent that such women are referred to as ‘phat’ in order so as to separate them physically and aesthetically from, say, fat white women, who tend to have a lot less muscle than Afro women, and thus, as a result, tend to look absolutely atrocious by comparison.
Nevertheless, I empathise with such women since their race and culture utterly rejects them – as is evidenced here.
[Chuck: Wait, you find them utterly atrocious yet you empathize with them? This doesn't add up.]
Menelik Charles
London UK
kenny bania. not tony
[Chuck: Thank you. I connected bania to danza for some reason and then associated danza with tony. What's it called when you do that?]
Only black guys like the fatties.
OT: Couldn’t get .com?
[Chuck: Nope. Some asshole got ahold of it. I could pay a domain registry place to bid for it for me, but I decided that was too much hassle.]
I’ve been with (a few) black women and white women and Asian women. And mixed-race women.
There’s a consistent theme in attractive women that isn’t shared with fat women. Fat women are usually sluttier, more desperate and more brazen – if they’re into sex at all – because they have to be. And they’re also more morally elf-assured, if they’re not into sex.
Like all women, their hamsters spin and spin spin and spin. The bald truth that Chuck writes about is absolutely the case: Underneath every excuse, every mealy non-reason, is the ultimate one: men don’t want them. They’re fat.
We can normalize them if we want to, but they’re still fat.
What’s interesting is how many black men don’t find fat women unattractive. it means that there may be a racial component to attractiveness – unsurprisingly.
I can say that the black women I’ve been with have all been smaller than normal black women, and much more like standard versions of what white men find attractive.
This from the article:
<I.He said the study's findings should provide another reason for people to trim their waistlines.
"It seems like a no-brainer," he said. "If you lose weight, you will feel more attractive and that could improve your sex life."
This suggests that the whole problem is FEELING UNATTRACTIVE. Not that you *ARE*, in the sexual marketplace, UNATTRACTIVE.
Because you can’t say that, of course.
And this sort of talk is Science-speak for “This is what happens”, not “This might be what happens”, which is used when they can’t say something directly:
“Maybe women are more tolerant of tubby husbands than men are of tubby wives,” said Kaye Wellings, a professor of sexual and reproductive health at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and one of the BMJ study authors.
Gorbachev
need to ask whether you ever downloaded our exchanges on the subject of culture over at Obsidian’s old blog (or any of his old blog posts)?
@Menelik,
Alas, no.
Halle Berry and Michelle Obama are very average looking mulatto and black women.
Compared to Pam Grier, not fully black herself, both Berry and Obongo are about ten percent less feminine and more testosterone-infused than Grier, who was regarded an alpha she-wolf in her day.
Ok, then I’ll appeal to anyone out there who has ever downloaded stuff from Obsidian’s old blog to pass them on back to him so he can restore his blog library.
Thanks
Personally, I don’t believe Shame Offensive would work. Shaming makes people feel bad about themselves and one of the biggest reasons for obesity is “emotional eating”. When one feels bad, she eats to comfort herself and usually it’s something very unhealthy like chocolate, chips or ice cream. So if you make fat people to feel bad, they probably just eat more instead of loosing weight.
Problem should be stopped before it even “borns” – when people are just children. It is so much easier to stay skinny than loose weight. So most important thing would be to concentrate on future generations and try to prevent children from becoming fat. Grown ups are pretty much lost case.
Halle Berry did have plastic surgery before she got famous. Same with Alicia Keys.
The plastic surgery made them both gorgeous…and much less black looking.
@ savrola:
have you seen Grier recently? she lost it..and that’s an understatement.
What the fuck, Chuck.
Obsidian, Menelik, all these fuckers are coming over to your blog to vent.
What is it with guys like you that just feel the need to spread your shit everywhere? The tiniest of encounter, verbal or not, ignites this attitude of, “Man, whatyo problem?”
You guys are forcing me to say that this is a black thing. Always waiting for a chance to escalate. Looking for an excuse to start shit.
Fuck off back to your head before you come up with another challenge and verbal argument. I’ll leave that shit to Chuck and Gorv. All I want to do is read Chuck’s entries and enjoy comments relevant to the topic.
Not another long ass dick measuring contest about how much you can spew debate about nothing.
Grier must be pushing seventy. She had “it” longer than Halle and Michelle ever will.
Honestly, Chuck, I think personality is also a huge factor here.
If you’re an overweight woman who thinks,”Big is beautiful!” and hates people who don’t agree with her, and hate on thinner, better looking women, then well…you’re going to see a single, obese woman.
One of my closest friends is obese and she’s had a steady boyfriend for two years. I feel very, very terrible even mentioning her weight because, for the most part, NO ONE thinks of her like that. She’s carismatic, caring, sensitive, and a little funny too. She has a number of male friends (that aren’t gay) that pick on her (never about her weight) and sometimes she takes it and sometimes she jokes back (not in a masculine way). This one snobby girl tried to make a comment at how it was so shocking that a girl this overweight could know so many guys and ALL my friends came to her defense. She’s a GREAT person. And that’s why she has such a GREAT relationship.
However, I notice a lot of girls, some not even nearly as overweight as the girl I just mentioned, and they have this…fat complex. It’s so ridiculous. Their weight is always an issue and always will be. They talk about dieting, losing weight, their curves, big is beautiful, etc. They OBSESS to the point where it is always in your face. And they are CRUEL and VICIOUS. I’ve dealt with two of them this past semester who turned on me really badly because a guy they wanted openly called them disgusting and then talked about how attractive he found me (or something). Then, of course, I became a source for their hate. Before that, it was this beautiful girl with a great singing voice. And before her, another beautiful girl who was a great artist and a bubbly personality. And all these girls had one important thing in common- they were thinner than them.
These girls struggle to find men because their negativity and hatred is so apparent. That, and with exteriors as terrible as their interiors…and their never going to find anyone. It sucks but it’s true. I’m not surprised if a study that delves into this further finds that positive, kind, compassionate obese women do a better job of finding men than negative, hateful obese women.
Menelik
Nevertheless, I empathise with such women since their race and culture utterly rejects them – as is evidenced here.
[Chuck: Wait, you find them utterly atrocious yet you empathize with them? This doesn't add up.]
Menelik is saying that White culture rejects fat women as ugly. How bad for white culture (though he doesn’t say that it’s bad). He implies but doesn’t say it that Black culture (assuming he means black culture when he says “some of the minority cultures”) doesn’t reject fat women – and is therefore better/more accomodating/etc.
I would say, … I guess it’s just a difference between races.
Gorbachev said:
Menelik is saying that White culture rejects fat women as ugly. How bad for white culture (though he doesn’t say that it’s bad). He implies but doesn’t say it that Black culture (assuming he means black culture when he says “some of the minority cultures”)
Menelik says:
hi Gorby, please do me an enormous favour and show me where you quoted me saying “some of the minority cultures”.
I’ll wait as long as you like!
Menelik, you implied this here. If you didn’t imply this, please explain exactly what you meant:
Sure, fat people are deemed ugly in Western society. But among some of its minority populations the fat is distributed around muscle of some women to such a pleasing extent that such women are referred to as ‘phat’ in order so as to separate them physically and aesthetically from, say, fat white women, who tend to have a lot less muscle than Afro women, and thus, as a result, tend to look absolutely atrocious by comparison.
Nevertheless, I empathise with such women since their race and culture utterly rejects them – as is evidenced here.
So you’re saying some fat Black women are more attractive than fat black women, given their heavier bones and greater muscle.
I’m going to go out on a limb here:
White guys don’t find either attractive. They’re not Phat; they’re just Fat.
Standards white guys have for beauty seem to be radically different from standards black men have for beauty.
Apparently, black guys like fat women. Seems to be the rule.
Hi Gorby,
please do me an enormous favour and show me where you QUOTED ME saying “some of the minority cultures”. I ask because I do not recall ever saying such a thing so (as you may appreciate) I’m rather taken aback when I am quoted saying something I NEVER actually said.
I’ll wait as long as you like!
Thanks.
You didn’t say some minority cultures. I was being sloppy. You can disregard my first quoting, as I wasn’t paying very much attention as this isn’t a job for me, and use the second one.
You can use the *second* quote. In that one, I bolded the relevant sections.
Note that I didn’t say that you said that black (or minority) cultures were superior for not rejecting fat women. I just noted that you said that white culture rejected them.
Satisfied?
I go on to suggest that blacks seem to have a higher tolerance for fatness in women than white men and white culture. In effect, I was agreeing with you. And that the fatness of, as you suggest, some black women is different fro the fatness of some black women.
I might go for this, but as a white guy, they all just look fat and ugly to me.
“But among some of its minority populations”
This is what you said. I extrapolated.
Fear not: From now on, I will only quote you exactly, with specific references, and not sum-up or extrapolate. Is that satisfactory, sir?
No one’s making generalizations about any race.
What Chuck posts, it’s based on observation. It may apply to some, it may not. That’s just common fucking sense.
Always turns into rebuttal against a generalization that was never made.
“Not all black people do this and that.”
No shit, dumb fuck. That’s because no one said that all blacks do this or that.
This is the problem I have with you digitally big mouths, Obsidian and Menelik.
Always picking a fight with words. Always.
Menelik,
Just one question.
Chuck was making a point about fat women.
You showed up and made a reference to how white folk don’t like fat and phat women. But that some minority women are appreciated by black culture when they’re phat – not fat.
Nobody had mentioned race at all this whole thread.
I just want to know: Why did you feel it relevant to suddenly come up and introduce the subject of race into this thread?
I don’t want to discuss race in this context. I’m just curious why you did it.
Black assholes just love to show up and shit on everything. Whether it’s neighborhoods, schools, clubs, websites. It doesn’t matter. It’s their nature.
White assholes just love to show up and shit on everything. Whether it’s neighborhoods, schools, clubs, websites. It doesn’t matter. It’s their nature.
This isn’t as much a referendum on obesity per se, but more of a spotlight on HBD truths that are ignored in the media.
HBD truth? I thought it was just common sense. Fat women are less attractive than thin women. We need science to tell us this?
Shaming makes people feel bad about themselves and one of the biggest reasons for obesity is “emotional eating”.
No, the biggest reason for obesity is “excessive eating”. This is not about shaming people, it’s about pointing out the obvious: You’re fat. Eat less.
Hi Chuck,
With all due respect and in the words of the character Bubbles from the hit HBO series The Wire, “you’re equivocatin’ like a MFer”, LOL – and you responded in exactly the way I had anticipated.
You see, it’s real easy to discuss these “truths” based on science or what have you, in the abstract – but when it hits close to home, then we start hemming and hawing. I the issue is about unattactriveness and ugliness, what does it matter if it’s the gal (or guy, for that matter) accross the street or someone who just happens to share some of the DNA with you? If you have a homely daughter, how do you justify fudging on the facts and not letting her know what she’s in for in this world, IF you claim to be for seeking out the truth? Either you are, or you’re not, it’s really as simple as that.
Which then brings to mind, at least for me, the real motivations as to why, for example, “fatties” are such a big discussion topic on White blogs (I put it that way because Gorby’s right, Brothas as a rule simply don’t have as many issues with bigger/fatter Women that White guys claim to have)…
…and that, in my view, has to do with a kind of backlash on the part of at least some White guys, who already feel beleagured and under siege by all of the massive social shifts occuring in our time. I don’t need to recount what they are, you all know them and write about them early and often (Chuck, OneSTDV0; but this piece, the “fat acceptance” thing, really gets under your craw, like a kid of Network-type scene, you know, where you’re mad as hell, and you’re not gonna take it anymore? Problem is, of course, that its an outrage looking for a problem. Why do I say that?
Because if you don’t like fat Women, you don’t have to date, associate, or otherwise have anything to do with them. It is a very easy “problem” to fix.
So, that being the case, why is there so much posting and commenting on and about “fatties”? It’s something I’ve been thinking about and my write about when my new blog is up and running, so stay tuned. But suffice it say, that I think there’s quite a bit more than meets the eye here, and I don’t think our White brothers are being quite as honest about the matter as they could be.
Hmm…
O.
[Chuck: Obsidian, let me just piss on your fire right from the start. I'll pull a Menelik Charles on you. And maybe take a page out of your playbook - the one where you point out that you've only mentioned a topic or a person a couple of times in your whole blogging history therefore you are hardly focused on it. So I'll ask you to show me where I've "posted and commented on and on" about fat women. If anything I've supported and expressed attraction for women who are considered fat by Western standards i.e. Serena Williams, Taccora (sp) Jones, and that one chunkier supermodel you had up on your site.
This is one of two posts I think I've ever written - out of nearly 600 - about fat women. And both have been in response to articles or pieces of research that try to sweep the issue under the rug by pretending that there isn't some cut-off line at which men lose attraction for a woman of a certain weight.
And you're really big on having me just ignore a subject as a way of showing that I disagree with it. Just don't date fat women, or just don't watch women's basketball. But if everyone just ignored the things they don't like rather than comment upon them, would the blogosphere even exist at all? Plus, the underlying issue here isn't fat women per se. As I keep saying, the issue for me is the article and the research. It is interesting to me in two ways. First, it reinforces evolutionary psychology. Second, it tries to make excuses for fat women's dearth of sex but shoots itself in the foot by using faulty logic. I'm not making an anti-fat woman statement as much as I'm making an anti-fat acceptance and an anti-anti-evo psych statement.]
Chuck,
Of course, you personally haven’t written all that much about “fatties”, but whether you did or not, it would not take away from my point that for whatever reason – one that I don’t think anyone’s really drilled down into – the topic in general IS one that is discussed quite a bit in the largely White Manosphere. And I think that in itself, is something that deserves a bit of examination, especially since it is a relatively easy “problem” to fix – simply don’t date fat Women. Problem solved.
[Chuck: You'd have to identify those bloggers who do discuss the issue a lot and take it up with them.]
It also raises the general question of unattractiveness, and brings it right to one’s own doorstep. Like I said, the whole fat issue is one that can be remedied, but having a “who let the dogs out” grill isn’t, not without resorting to the knife. And, even more to the point, if said gal is YOUR daughter, well now, we’ll see just how willing those who claim, implicitly or otherwise, to “keep it real”. Who among us has the sheer balls to tell their homely daughter outright what the deal is and what to expect in this life? Hands up, brave gents!
[Chuck: You're confused about something here. If I am talking to my hypothetically fat daughter about the harsh reality of the world, I think we would confront the truth - that ugly or fat girls aren't well received. I would tell her, in indirect terms, that she has to take what she can get. Her standards can't be as high as a hot chick. I'd say this diplomatically.
But my attitude and behavior in that scenario is much different than the one I'm taking in discussing obesity in general. My sense is that fat-acceptance types ignore the "take what you can get" advice by adopting mantras like "big is beautiful" and labeling hefty broads "BBWs" - "big beautiful women". Some big women are attractive - it depends on their face and their ratios - but most, marginally, are not.
In raising my hypothetically ugly/fat daughter, I wouldn't be teaching her that her ugliness is objectively beautiful in terms of her ability to snag eligible bachelors nor am I trying to convince her that her obesity is just a minor factor - it is, indeed, a very large factor in her ability to snag a mate (which I'm assuming most women still want to do).]
Now in all fairness to you Chuck, you said straight up that you probably couldn’t do it, and that really does raise a lot of questions for me, because I think we can find at least as many instances of parents with ugly kids as we can of instances of fat chicks – but we talk a heck of a lot about one, and virtually nothing about the other.
[Chuck: People talk about fat women more because obesity is seen as something within that person's control. And no matter how badly people want to convince us that obesity is genetic etc, the truth remains that people can vastly improve their appearance by losing weight. If you're born structurally ugly though, you're doomed. And people do have some sense of decency: it's harder to admonish ugly people than to admonish fat people.
We could turn your question around and ask the fat acceptance groups as well, you know. Why the campaigns for "big is beautiful" instead of the ones that preach "asymmetry is cool" or "acne scars rock"? Precisely because obesity is seen as a *choice* that fat people make, and since we *have to* accept everyone's choices no matter how unhealthy or stupid they are (lest we judge), fat people are groupified into some sort of oppressed group. And since they are an oppressed group they have legions of leftist minded activists watching their back. Not so for ugly people. Nobody is going to defend mutants and freaks who just look weird.]
And since, there is so much talk in the Manosphere about having families at some point, it is downright foolish to think that all of those daddies to be are going to have drop dead gorgeous sons and daughters – in fact, if Galton’s Law has anything to say about it, the chances that said offspring will be at best average, if not a heck of a lot worse, is fairly high.
So, why don’t we talk about that Chuck? I mean, why talk about people who are, no matter whether we like them or not, are for the most part, alien to us? I have my own reasons, but I’m hoping you or your readers will chime in.
Holla back
O.
Chuck is kindly implying you need to shut the fuck up.
Obs,
…and that, in my view, has to do with a kind of backlash on the part of at least some White guys, who already feel beleagured and under siege by all of the massive social shifts occuring in our time. I don’t need to recount what they are, you all know them and write about them early and often
Not at all. It means we have women who have removed themselves from the dating market, even of they don’t realize that’s what they’ve done, by allowing themselves to become ugly. Not to be born ugly: To become ugly.
It’s the destruction of the mating quality of our female mates. Their principal SMV is in their attractiveness, and they let that go right out the window. And then they blame men for being shallow (which is incredibly rich, coming from women as a gender).
It has nothing to do with being “under siege”.
Stop looking for your racial politics in everything. Nobody is upset that our women get fat and ugly and black guys are marginally into them more than we are when they get fat. Once they’re fat, they cease to be datable in any sense to us; they cease to render on the senses as female at all. That’s just a fact.
There’s no racial anomie involved, not a smidgen. Don’t try to manufacture it.
Hi Gorby,
Long time, no hear.
It seems to me, that the sheer volume of “anti-fatty” postings that go on in the Manosphere, is quite interesting, and I’ll grant you your theory – that it is a mass reaction on the part of said White Males in said Manosphere, of the narrowing down of eligible White Women among to date/marry/screw/etc. I get that.
Here’s the thing, though…
So what? I mean, aren’t beautiful Women, even under the best of circumstances, hard to find? And given so many in the Manosphere’s high standards – nothing under a 7 will do – even if these “fatties” lost the weight, there is no guarantee that they would be 7s and above, would they?
It seems to me that there is indeed some degree of what some have referred to as White Male Mate Entitlement going on here – and that all of the reaction to the “fatties” of the world is in part about this. For my part, it’s quite something to behold!
Holla back
O.
Obsidian:
“some have referred to as White Male Mate Entitlement”? The only one referring to that is you.
Anyway, you can hardly pin this attitude – the attitude of a person wishing their same-race gender analogue (assuming that people would *prefer* to date/mate within their own race) – solely on white men. black men do it to black women: “they’re too demanding, too bitchy, etc.”. black women do it to black men: “they can’t get a job”. white men do it to white women: “they’re fat and they don’t care”. white women do it to white men: “they’re pigs (I use this example because I do feel that black men get more of a free pass in the piggish behavior department for whatever reason)”
In short, everyone complains when the group of people they’d most like to mate with doesn’t get their shit together and make strides towards being the best partner they can be. women, in general, could stand to lose some weight. if women lost an average of ten pounds, relations may vastly improve. of course, men could shore up some of their deficiencies as well.
So I challenge your assertion that this attitude is relegated only to white men. Of course, I’m sure you’re looking for that challenge.
Hi Chuck,
Replies below:
[Chuck: You'd have to identify those bloggers who do discuss the issue a lot and take it up with them.]
O: Nice dodge, but we both know what I’m talking about.
[Chuck: You're confused about something here.
O: No I'm not, you just don't wanna deal with what I'm saying.
C: If I am talking to my hypothetically fat daughter about the harsh reality of the world, I think we would confront the truth - that ugly or fat girls aren't well received. I would tell her, in indirect terms, that she has to take what she can get. Her standards can't be as high as a hot chick. I'd say this diplomatically.
O: Why be so indirect and diplomatic, Chuck? I mean, after all, the facts are written all over your daughter's face, yes? Why not simply tell her in blunt terms, what she can expect? Seems fairly simple enough to me, especially if one is about assessing the facts of life.
C: But my attitude and behavior in that scenario is much different than the one I'm taking in discussing obesity in general.
O: Why? Both are unattractive, and in the end, out there on the SMP Savannah, that's all that matters in the end. Right?
C: My sense is that fat-acceptance types ignore the "take what you can get" advice by adopting mantras like "big is beautiful" and labeling hefty broads "BBWs" - "big beautiful women". Some big women are attractive - it depends on their face and their ratios - but most, marginally, are not.
O: "Your sense" - but do you actually know what is going on here, Chuck, or not? In other words, have you actually spoken with some of the members of those fat acceptance groups and the like? Or not? What's the deal with that? It's fine for you to speculate, but if you're going to suggest what said groups do or don't feel, then it might behoove you to do a bit of research on said groups and find out what they actually do think and believe, as well as for why they do what they do. I'm just sayin.
C: In raising my hypothetically ugly/fat daughter, I wouldn't be teaching her that her ugliness is objectively beautiful in terms of her ability to snag eligible bachelors nor am I trying to convince her that her obesity is just a minor factor - it is, indeed, a very large factor in her ability to snag a mate (which I'm assuming most women still want to do).]
O: I was asking if you had a facially homely daughter. Her weight, one way or another, had nothing to do with my question. Just making that clear.
[Chuck: People talk about fat women more because obesity is seen as something within that person's control. And no matter how badly people want to convince us that obesity is genetic etc, the truth remains that people can vastly improve their appearance by losing weight. If you're born structurally ugly though, you're doomed. And people do have some sense of decency: it's harder to admonish ugly people than to admonish fat people.
O: Rubbish - come on Chuck, you can't possibly have typed the above last line of your comment with a straightface. Guys can be and are incredibly cruel on gals with less than comely features - you know what I'm saying to be true, just head on over to Roissy for a prima facia example, just to name one of legion. "Admonishing" ugly gals is second nature to the guy and many of his most stalwart readers, and they are by no means alone. So let's cut the you know what on that score.
As for the big gals, no, "people" don't talk about them, White guys in the largely White Manosphere frequently do, and for the reasons that Gorby laid out in his most recent comment. And which, you know what, I totally get. I just think the rationale is all jacked up, is all.
Anyway, as to whether losing weight is a genetic issue - I think there is something indeed to be said for that, Chuck. I mean, it seems clear to me, that some Women are just larger, even if they lost the weight, than others, and that's why I said that I think the rationale on the part of some of the White guys online is outta whack. Some of these White gals aren't going to be able to slim down to a dress size 6 or below, simply because, wait for it, their genetics won't allow for it. Now, that doesn't mean that they can't be more fit, but all Women ain't made for being rail thin, and if that's what so many White guys claim to want, no wonder they're bleating so much on the blogs and the like, because that's a pretty big letdown to contend with.
C: We could turn your question around and ask the fat acceptance groups as well, you know. Why the campaigns for "big is beautiful" instead of the ones that preach "asymmetry is cool" or "acne scars rock"?
O: Indeed we could - but I got an even better one: why is it that we haven't seen a Short Guy Acceptance movement crop up over the years? I think the answer to that also lies in HBD - that is to say, that Men tend to accept life on its terms, not on what they want it to be, and take things from there. The fat acceptance movement is primarily one that is made up of Women, and Women tend to be more sensitive to being accepted by others. Just a thought.
C: Precisely because obesity is seen as a *choice* that fat people make, and since we *have to* accept everyone's choices no matter how unhealthy or stupid they are (lest we judge), fat people are groupified into some sort of oppressed group. And since they are an oppressed group they have legions of leftist minded activists watching their back. Not so for ugly people. Nobody is going to defend mutants and freaks who just look weird.]
O: Ever see the movie called Freaks? As I recall, it got quite a few advocates in favor of banning the film and seeing to it that the actors in the movie got humane treatment, etc.
Anyway, no one is forcing you or anyone else into accepting fat Women into your life if you don’t want them in it, Chuck. Come on. Like I said, it is a problem easily remedied – simply don’t date or otherwise deal with them.
Next question?
O.
Obs,
There’s no entitlement. In fact, it’s resistance to female entitlement. Women just went out and got super fat. They’re less attractive. We want to be attracted to our women.
There isn’t a single bit of white male entitlement. If all of our women went out and decided to go bald at the same time or wore dog masks all the time, we might get upset, too.
Letting themselves get fat and ugly is, … well, just disgusting.
Every single time I go to Asia, about 5-6 times a year for good lengths of time, I’m stunned when I get back at how disgusting fat people here are. It can take weeks to get used to it again. Though I bitch a lot, so I don’t know if I ever get used to it.
Obs,
O: No I’m not, you just don’t wanna deal with what I’m saying.
Hardly. Obs, you’re not saying anything.
In one sentence, tell me what you’re saying?
Fat women are viscerally repulsive to normal men. Obsidian doesn’t get that because he’s wired differently and he dates thick black girls. Fair enough. What’s unclear is why does he keep returning to this subject. If you don’t agree that women shoudl be thinner, stop communicating wiht white men on this subject. Problem. Solved
By the way, I’m not looking for a mate. But I remember 80s America quite well. I worked in a shitty fast food restaurant with prole and middle class white girls, and almost all of them were thin and for that reason nice enough to look at, chat with, or bang (I made out wiht one, and banged one).
And it would be nice to go into a slice-of-life part of America and see girls like that again, instead of chubbies and fatties.
I wonder if obesity is region-related. It’s *bad* here in the mid-Atlantic. But I spend a week recently in a gritty medium-sized New England city on business. It was very Italian-American, and most of the girls, the working-class ones, where thin and very sexy.
In Boston and NYC it’s not so bad; but try anywhere else.
One of the reason Boston isn’t so bad Sept-May are the university students.
I know Boston well; lived there for 3 years, and you’re right about the girls there. College girls and higher-class girls tend to look nice. Cambridge is a poon gallery and Back Bay even more so. Walking along the Charles river is a treat for the eyes.
But what I miss is seeing nice-looking girls in everyday, common situations in non-patrician America. What surprised me about that Italian-American community is that the girls were for the most part working class, and they were very attractive.
Obsidian:
I’ve answered all of your questions. Whichever blogger you have beef with take it up with him. I don’t read every comment thread of every Manosphere blogger.
I’ve answered your questions but you haven’t answered the one I’ve asked you several times: what is the point of blogs or internet discourse? And again, if you disagree with me then, by your own advice, you’d just ignore me. But you don’t ignore me because you disagree. Just as you speak up when you disagree, I speak up when I disagree with illogical fluff pieces and research. It just so happens that the fluff piece in question was one about fat women being unattractive. I don’t date fat women – that part is settled. But then again, that’s not what I’m discussing here. Is it?
The French study referred to above is nothing definitive in the realm of sexual-well-being/ obesity research. It is unique only in that the subjects interviewed were French.
Here is another using (USA) SPSS data and this conclusion: CONCLUSION: With the exception of ever engaging in sexual intercourse with a man, sexual behavior differs little between women of different body mass indices.
(http://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/Fulltext/2008/09000/Body_Mass_Index_and_Sexual_Behavior.13.aspx)
Much more interesting is the finding of a fourfold incidence of “unplanned” pregnancy among the obese French women compared to their normal weight counterparts. In reality her pregnancy lies somewhere along the spectrum of: intentional/covert/subconscious desire/OK-if-it-happens/. Accademics can not understand that a young woman needs a baby to love them unconditionally, and needs purpose to her life. Easy to theorize that an obese woman needs baby-love more than a normal weight woman.
@PA
I know Boston well; lived there for 3 years, and you’re right about the girls there. College girls and higher-class girls tend to look nice.
It’s quite remarkable. Up until they get crushing or dull desk jobs, they tend to be slinky and hot. My current GF was one of them. Like her, there are many super-hot women about; however, for the hot ones, you need to work. I’ve had to work pretty hard.
There are fatties. The lesbians and radical feminists, if I can throw out a stereotype here, tend to be larger. It’s just a rule, and often observed in the breach, so to speak, but by and large it’s true.
Cambridge is a poon gallery and Back Bay even more so. Walking along the Charles river is a treat for the eyes.
Back Bay is fantastic. However, if you want to see what this should really be like, go to Japan or Korea. More or less everywhere there is a poon gallery. It’s not restricted to one area. And there are so few fat women, it’s shocking. Anyone used to the women here might get spontaneous aneurisms or whiplash over there.
I recall being at a subway station in October (now I forget where, but somewhere off of downtown), and counting the percentage of women 6-7 or higher. It was hard to be faithful to the scale: there were literally *no* fat women. Not one. I must have stood there for half an hour waiting for someone. Not a single fat woman. Every one was lithe and, as a result, much more attractive than most American women.
Not all were pretty, and about the same proportion were hot (once fatness was discounted). But the lack of fatness made what would be a 2-3 in the US a 5-6 over there. It was a treat, let me tell you.
But what I miss is seeing nice-looking girls in everyday, common situations in non-patrician America. What surprised me about that Italian-American community is that the girls were for the most part working class, and they were very attractive.
Italian-American women do tend to be hot. I remember NYC and NJ being good for that; I used to see office-worker type women who were of some kind of Mediterranean extraction and were all squeezable.
Hey Gorb, all this talk about Boston girls brings up memories. Here is an ancient comment of mine at Roissy’s on the subject.
LOL, no need to convince me about the baseline beauty of Korean girls. Your account is 100% correct. Lived there one year.
PA:
You should think about compiling the comments you’ve made at the wide variety of blogs you visit and make a blog of your own out of that. Granted, I only came on the Roissy scene about 2.5 years ago, but I already recognized you as an established commenter. You, Doug1, Whiskey, Willard Libby, DA, and even Obsidian are the guys I remember most. Ah, the golden years. Then Cannon’s Canon and Tupac Chopra. Who am I missing?
Either way, you’ve been around a while. Might as well compile some of your more epic comments. Give background on the topic being discussed. At the least it will remind all of us about some of the very interesting topics we used to discuss over at Roissy’s.
Interesting memory. I’ve got a few of those. Ah, the Beta days. I was astounded that men were able to so easily control and dominate women, and the women were happy. And the men were in relationships with hot women for long periods. I was only occasionally able to manage that. Most of the women I dated were about the same as me. Only my ex-wife was hotter than I was handsome; and that, not for long. I was such a beta. I’ve been successfully avoiding anything approaching beta for years now, in relationships, and it’s exactly what you’d think it would be: MUCH better. Women are happier with it, too. Take that, feminism.
Every time I go to Korea I think – damn.
I’ve got no interest in picking up women any more over there, as I think I sampled much of the country when I lived there for three years, but it brings back some extremely fond memories. I still know guys with harems over there, women stashed all over the city, who seem to be able at the age of 40 or even older to collect painfully hot women without any difficulty. The 28-35 set, and the married women, are absurdly easy to tap into. The relative rewards – an almost unlimited number of hot women – are hard to pass up.
But, alas, it all starts to pale, after a while. Once you go through your crazies, all you want really is the real thing.
Though I do have a former mate, of sorts, who is easily one of if not the hottest women I’ve ever been with, who I occasionally see from time to time. Airline stewardess. What’s struck me is how well Korean women age.
Hi Chuck,
Blogs exists for many reasons, some of whom exist as sounding boards for their owners. I don’t have a problem with easily 90% of what you or anyone else writes; I think I’ve said this before, but when it comes to your blog in particular, I don’t comment on the vast majority of topics you bring up. It’s just that when I see a blogger going hard at a particular topic, it raises questions for me, such as what their motivations are for writing on said topic. Human nature being what it is, people are rarely so naked in what they’re really getting at, hence again my suspicion of some of the bloggers; true motivations.
Now, having said that, and taking you particularly out of the mix, it is undeniable that the largely White – I have to put it that way because I want to be as precise here as I can – Manosphere, there is indeed a kind of common theme about breaking on fat White chicks, and that’s an interesting topic to me, one because it seems to be such a commonly discussed topic, and two because of the reasons Gorby and PA, as well as Roissy in the past, have made clear: White Women are to remain as thin as possible for the express visual enjoyment of White Men, even if said White Men are “off the market” and are no longer looking, as in the cases of PA or Gorby. Hence White Male Mate Entitlement. More on this in my next comment…
O.
Obsidian:
“some have referred to as White Male Mate Entitlement”? The only one referring to that is you.
Anyway, you can hardly pin this attitude – the attitude of a person wishing their same-race gender analogue (assuming that people would *prefer* to date/mate within their own race) – solely on white men. black men do it to black women: “they’re too demanding, too bitchy, etc.”. black women do it to black men: “they can’t get a job”. white men do it to white women: “they’re fat and they don’t care”. white women do it to white men: “they’re pigs (I use this example because I do feel that black men get more of a free pass in the piggish behavior department for whatever reason)”
In short, everyone complains when the group of people they’d most like to mate with doesn’t get their shit together and make strides towards being the best partner they can be. women, in general, could stand to lose some weight. if women lost an average of ten pounds, relations may vastly improve. of course, men could shore up some of their deficiencies as well.
So I challenge your assertion that this attitude is relegated only to white men. Of course, I’m sure you’re looking for that challenge.
Hi PA,
Long time, no hear! Replies below:
PA: Fat women are viscerally repulsive to normal men. Obsidian doesn’t get that because he’s wired differently and he dates thick black girls. Fair enough. What’s unclear is why does he keep returning to this subject. If you don’t agree that women shoudl be thinner, stop communicating wiht white men on this subject. Problem. Solved
O: Whoa, hold on, partner. You’ve tossed out a heck of a lot of non-sequiturs, ad hominem attacks, logical fallacies and strawmen on the table, and all in one fell swoop, no less! Let’s try and unpack the drivel one bit at a time, shall we?
“Fat women are viscerally repulsive to normal men.”
OK – so how do you explain all the noticeably larger (and we’re focusing on WHITE Women here) who clearly have hubbies/mates and kids, PA? Sure, we can argue that they weren’t always that current size, that they “blew up” after having kids; but given that the average dress size of the American Woman, again, White, hovers around 12 or so, I would think that at least a goodly number of the ladies were already plus-sized when they met their mates. And the French study JZ alluded to seems to tally with this. In short: if fatter Women are indeed so “repulsive to normal Men” they wouldn’t get any play at all, have any babies at all, wouldn’t get laid at all, etc, et al. But all it takes is a pair of farily decently working eyes to see that this is NOT the case. Again, we’re talking about White America, circa 2010 here, no one else. Please explain?
“Obsidian doesn’t get that because he’s wired differently and he dates thick black girls. Fair enough.”
O: Thanks, I think. LOL. Classic ad hominem here: what I do or don’t like personally is irrelevant to the discission. We aren’t discussing my personal tastes in Women, or that of Black Men in general for that matter; we are discussing the whys and wherefores of the general tendency of the Manosphere – which is primarily White – to relentlessly break on White fat chicks, Women who they claim they have no interest in. If that’s true, why even bring them up at all?
“If you don’t agree that women shoudl be thinner, stop communicating wiht white men on this subject. Problem. Solved”
O: See, I think it’s beginning to catch on.
Seriously though, I’ve begun to layout my “whys” in the previous comment to Chuck, and I’ll be speaking more on this in upcoming comments. But in the meantime, I’ll just say, that I’ve always been interested in what motivates people or groups of people, and that isn’t always on the surface, even among an ostensibly “keeping it real” group of people as the largely White Manosphere – indeed, given the nature of the medium, the Internet, it is much more likely that such issues are used in ways that are not clearly what they seem. The Web tends to foster an airing of views that wouldn’t normally be tolerated in actual face to face interaction, and there is something to be said for that.
More coming up…
O.
Hi Chuck,
Replies below:
C: Obsidian:
“some have referred to as White Male Mate Entitlement”? The only one referring to that is you.
O: Yes, that’s true insofar as the current discussion is concerned, and I’ve definitely coined the term; but believe me when I tell you Chuck, that quite a few Black folks lurk in the Manosphere in its varied permutations, and in discussions with them, both online and off, they all seem to agree that White Male Mate Entitlement Syndrome is a very real thing. Once I started hearing the same sentiments over and over again from Black observers who came from different parts of the country and don’t know each other, it occurred to me that there was a there, there. Hence the name.
C: Anyway, you can hardly pin this attitude – the attitude of a person wishing their same-race gender analogue (assuming that people would *prefer* to date/mate within their own race) – solely on white men.
O: I most certainly can pin it onto White Men. In fact, I just did. See above.
C: black men do it to black women: “they’re too demanding, too bitchy, etc.”.
O: Yes, but there is no “BlackManosphere” where such a theme is so dominant in its regularity. If there is, please point the attendant blogs out to me? Surely, I’ve not written of such things. I’ll patiently wait for that list…
C: black women do it to black men: “they can’t get a job”.
O: That hasn’t been my experience. The issue for some Black Women isn’t that Black Men can’t or won’t, “get a job” but rather, that he doesn’t have the right kind of job they need for their profile. So to that extent, yea, you’d be onto something, and I’ve written about this on my previous blog, as you well know.
C: white men do it to white women: “they’re fat and they don’t care”. white women do it to white men: “they’re pigs (I use this example because I do feel that black men get more of a free pass in the piggish behavior department for whatever reason)”
O: From what I’ve read on largely White Women blogs, you seem to have a point in relation to White Women. As for Black Women/Black Men, I think it might be because we tend to be more beholden to traditional views of the sexes moreso than do Whites, and that seems to be the case irrespective of class.
C: In short, everyone complains when the group of people they’d most like to mate with doesn’t get their shit together and make strides towards being the best partner they can be. women, in general, could stand to lose some weight. if women lost an average of ten pounds, relations may vastly improve. of course, men could shore up some of their deficiencies as well.
O: That may or may not be; the problem I have with the whole ball of wax is that it is built on the assumption that one has a RIGHT to a mate, and that just isn’t the case. No one owes you anything in this world. You don’t have the right to a mate, no matter how fair, or good or just a person you think you are. People in our time in particular have these kinds of views in mind; but I am focusing in on the White Manosphere because of the aforementioned reasons. And what they need to get through their heads is that no one owes them anything. If they can’t find the kinds of mates they would like to be with, they need to find something else to do with their lives, instead of constantly bleating on and on about it on some gaggle of blogs somewhere online. It not only will change anything, but all it does is make said group of White Males look like the “pigs” their White Women counterparts accuse them of being.
One of the reasons why I, in particular, don’t write about such things is because I understand that I don’t have an intrinsic right to a mate. If there aren’t any of the kinds of Women I’m interested in out there, the onus is on me to do something about that – move to another location, adjust my expectations, or simply accept that won’t be getting one of my desires fulfilled, and keep it moving. I don’t expect Women to look a certain way just for my visual fulfillment. *shrugs*
C: So I challenge your assertion that this attitude is relegated only to white men. Of course, I’m sure you’re looking for that challenge.
O: If I said that White Men think the sky is blue, I am sure you would challenge that, LOL.
O.
Obsidian normally comes across as a crypto-feminist. Take note that he never criticizes feminist policies in any meaningful way but endlessly complains about misogyny, white racism, the white sense of entitlement, white hypocrisy and white men in general, insisting that they should simply make more effort to find the good women that are still out there.
Obs, you should simply get over the fact that entitled, egotistic white beta males outrageously enslaved your African ancestors, thus supposedly robbing them of the chance to build the glorious civilization of Kemet. Trust me, nobody cares. Well, at least not the people on websites like this.
You’re confusing the Manosphere with Christian traditionalists like Mike Richardson and Laura Wood.
If obesity rates rise among white women then beautiful white women will objectively become harder to find. Very simple.
PA,
Italian American men do not like fat women and aren’t afraid to say so. That is why obesity is not a problem in the town you visited.
Black women did not used to be overweight Obsidian. Go check out a Supremes video on youtube. What do you think of them?
Obesity for women is very much a class issue and to a lesser degree a regional one. Higher class urban and suburban women tend to be thin. Rural and lower middle class/lower class women often are overweight.
jz,
I think you have a good theory about why overweight women are more likely to have an unplanned pregnancy. I also think they are probably less intelligent in general and therefore less responsible about using birth control.
piece of research out of some university somewhere
Clever start, Chuck, in your quest to perfect the research remix satire. Now, follow this format:
–”an authoritative-appearing man, driving by University, stated he
–would like to do a study someday (Roissy special)
–to prove
–that laughing and finger wagging
–”was relational”
–to a 50 lb weight loss and loss of 10 years of age to shamed women.
–to ciphering his data backwards
–
Agree,Laura, that overweight women skew low intelligence, low discipline, with more resultant “unplanned” pregnancies.
PA and Gorb, can you teach me more about Italian Americans?
Is there hope for anything long term with those girls?
It’s one of few groups left in America whose ethnicity has the aura of “can cook.”
Ever heard of Aretha Franklin? Ella Fitzgerald?
*facepalm*
O.
Ever heard of Aretha Franklin? Ella Fitzgerald?
*facepalm*
O.
PS: Please disregard the previous response, it was supposed to be addressed to Lara…
And this is based on what studies, dear sir? Both you and Lara are going on the assumption (among many) that these fat Women were just too dumb to use birth control, when in fact the opposite may be true – that they want to become pregnant. I await your source info. Thanks!
O.
Hi Hollenhund,
Replies below:
H: Obsidian normally comes across as a crypto-feminist.
O: ??? LMAO! OK, so now you resort to calling me names when you can’t find any legitimate way to respond to my arguments? SMH
H: Take note that he never criticizes feminist policies in any meaningful way
O: Uh, H, I am FOR Roe For Men. I am FOR Mandatory Paternity Testing. I am FOR ending Chivalry. I am FOR reforming IMBRA, family court law, child support laws, and so on. I have written about all of this, extensively, accross the Manosphere. By stating in writing that I am FOR these things, I am by definition, standing in opposition to many stated views and policies of the Feminists.
H: but endlessly complains about misogyny,
O: Please provide a few examples?
H: white racism,
O: When have I discussed such an issue here on this thread or elsewhere, within say, the past few months?
H: the white sense of entitlement,
O: This is the only time I’ve actually discussed the matter.
H: white hypocrisy
O: I don’t ever recall discussing any such topic, please elaborate?
H: and white men in general,
O: My comments in this thread wasn’t about White Men in general, I was discussing a subset of White Men that make up the Manosphere.
H: insisting that they should simply make more effort to find the good women that are still out there.
O: That is usually how it works. If you want something in this world, you usually have to go out and actively seek it. It won’t just fall into your lap – and if you think it should, then I would say, that this would count as yet another manifestation of White Male Mate Entitlement Syndrome.
H: Obs, you should simply get over the fact that entitled, egotistic white beta males outrageously enslaved your African ancestors, thus supposedly robbing them of the chance to build the glorious civilization of Kemet. Trust me, nobody cares. Well, at least not the people on websites like this.
O: LMAO. Now you’re accusing me of being mad about slavery, huh? Did you get up outta the wrong side of the bed this morning, H?
H: You’re confusing the Manosphere with Christian traditionalists like Mike Richardson and Laura Wood.
O: Kinda hard to do since I don’t know who these people are. Please explain?
H: If obesity rates rise among white women then beautiful white women will objectively become harder to find. Very simple.
O: Not quite; for one thing, it doesn’t address the facial beauty issue, which I have discussed above with Chuck; please review it? So, assuming a fat White Woman lost weight and went from a dress size 16 to a dress size 6, but still had, at best, a 3-4 face, would any of you magically want to make her your wife? Based on the comments I’ve seen and read accross the Manosphere and the very high standards so many of you claim to have, I think not.
Holla back – sans the ad hominem this time?
O.
read at 12:53am
Also, I’m a woman.
Hi JZ,
My bad. OK, so how about providing some stats/studies that back up your assertions about fat Women? Thanks.
O.
It’s love…..
A sista with attitude….
It’s love…..
http://de.acidcow.com/pics/20100316/donna_simpson_03.jpg
A sista with attitude….
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldxa9oeflb1qdif86o1_400.gif
[Chuck: I wrote about Donna Simpson earlier this year. Disgusting.]
Gorbachev, you have a fetish for Asian women.
Same Asian woman with and without make up.
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lcon0jWQa01qawcl5o1_500.png
Of course this is true for women of any race but when I hear a White guy raving about the attractiveness of Asian women I want to see pictures because I know when a guy has an Asian fetish he always overvalues the attractiveness of Asian women.
Many of these women range from ugly to average yet the Asian fetish boys can’t stop drooling and calling the 8s and 9s.
Donna probably won’t live to see her daughter grow up. The man who fathered her child must have zero respect for himself and not have a very strong paternal instinct to choose such an unfit mother. It is a mystery how he was even able to impregnate her.
@Rock Granite
Gorbachev, you have a fetish for Asian women.
You might think that – except that I look at it this way.
many people thikn that to be attracted to a woman not of your race, you need to have a fetish. Consider this.
I don’t have a preference for – or against – women of my own race. In fact, I like beautiful women. I can tell a beautiful woman of any race. Of course, I use standards I have based on the fact that I’m a white guy – so I may not find the same black women attractive as Obsidian does. IE, black women who are not fat.
I never said Korean women were more objectively beautiful; they have the same proportion of beauty there as anywhere else. What I *do* say is that there are basically no fat Koreans (there are some, but the numbers are so small as to be irrelevant). And then there’s southern China. Of course, you have to deal with the fact that in southern East Asia, the women are also tiny.
But in Korea, they can be tall. And very hot.
I look at it this way: Men who only find women of their own race attractive have a fetish.
Same Asian woman with and without make up.
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lcon0jWQa01qawcl5o1_500.png
Of course this is true for women of any race but when I hear a White guy raving about the attractiveness of Asian women I want to see pictures because I know when a guy has an Asian fetish he always overvalues the attractiveness of Asian women.
I can throw some pictures your way if you like. I agree, this woman is not at all attractive.
Many of these women range from ugly to average yet the Asian fetish boys can’t stop drooling and calling the 8s and 9s.
I know an Asian 8 or 9 when I see one. And there are lots on Korea and China.
I acknowledge your point, though; I know guys like that. I, however, am not one of them.
I pretty much find only white women attractive. White, however, is extremely diverse: from creamy scandinavian blondes to pale, raven-haired Italian girls, and everything in between. But you gotta have straightish silky hair, fair skin, light colored nipples, and thin facial features. There are probably subconscious pheremonal factors as well.
As far as Asian women go, I can be attracted to them but more so to sophisticated ones with sharper, westernized features. Apparently, Asian men prefer the more flat-faced, or “moonfaced” qualities in Asian women’s faces, whereas White men like the more sharp, defined white-looking faces in Asian women.
Also, I recall that after my year in Korea, even though I appreciated the slim and elegant women there, I felt somethig akin to sensory deprivation from not seeing white women.
Fucking Obsidian’s comment seems to have overwhelmed my question for PA and Gorb.
Allah,
I have Italian American girlfriends and they do enjoy cooking and talking about food. I’m not Italian, but it really isn’t that hard to put together a good meal. The first step is buying high quality food, especially the meat or fish. I think more important than a woman already being a good cook is a willingness to do it since it can be learned.
As far as gaming Italian girls, I would say be alpha and a little macho. They seem to respond well to it. My next door neighbor is Italian and he once made a comment about my husband being p-whipped because he changed my son’s diaper when I was home. His wife seem to find that amusing.
Are you white? Most Italian girls don’t seem to date black guys. I think their fathers are usually opposed to it.
I don’t have a whole lot of insight into Italian-American girls. My intuition based on some interaction with working-class ones in New England is as follows: be alpha, but look northern-Euro.
They expect stong alpha wiht a heavy dose of cocky/funny, but a blondish/fair look is a nice change to what they’re normally used to in fellow Italian-looking men. Similar to how northern-Euro gilrs like more dark hair / sark eyes look of Italian men as an alternative to the fair-featured men they’re normally used to.
The name Allah is a friendly poke at our favorite black Muslim who has a knack for posting.
I like what you said, Lara. But that’s even more difficult to detect. Willingness to cook/learn how to cook. Damn near impossible in America.
The angles are drying up here in America. Some Midwestern girls are still good, the ones from small towns and raised in a proper home without any princess bullshit. I honestly haven’t got a clue where to look for if I want long term quality. Not bothering with church and all that either.
I have a feeling that PA is walking the path alone as well at the moment?
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PA is married. I do think he is right that Italian women might find blondish/fairer more northern european features more attractive since they have some exotic appeal to them. They also tend to be a little taller than Italian men which is to their advantage. My brother and my cousin are both blond haired and blue eyed and they both find dark haired, dark eyed women the most attractive. I guess some differences create a spark.
I have dark features. Heh.
Lara is American and married as well, yes?
Nice of you to cook for your family. Nothing like it.
@Rock Granite
That woman wasn’t attractive in either picture.
Allah,
Yes I’m an American and married. It’s funny to think that people used to regularly marry their cousins, which doesn’t seem very exciting at all. When men and women have more options they do seem to have more chemistry with people who are somewhat different from themselves. Your dark features will probably have more raw physical appeal to women with fair coloring.
Allah,
What country are you from?
I wonder what got “Allah”s knickers in a twist, LOL. By the way, “Allah” is also a rather common name in the Islamic world; its one of the 99 attributes. Funny that he didn’t know that PA was married, I’ve known that for as long as I’ve known the guy, and that has to be, at least three years now.
O.
This is somewhat off-topic and I’m sure others have already noticed this before but isn’t it a strange contradiction that as Western people are in an increasingly worse physical shape overall (rising obesity rates, more and more couch potato men etc.), the men and women in movies, commercials and pop music seem to be more and more toned, thin and muscular, even to the point where women are less and less feminine in appearance (see Madonna, Angelina Jolie etc.)?
salam hello every body human being
nice comments passed on comments page
my opinion very less peoples knows about the inner feelings of somebody
so all of my dears it depend case to cases bases.
hi sorry if i hurt some some one just my lazy comments
be happy every one my pray
I love fat women because i feel satisfied with than slin women