As you may have heard by now, former NBA player and ESPN basketball analyst Jalen Rose is at the center of a controversy over his reference to affluent black Duke basketball recruits as ‘Uncle Tom’s’ in a 30 for 30 documentary covering Michigan’s Fab Five.
For me Duke was personal. I hated Duke, and I hated everything I felt Duke stood for. Schools like Duke didn’t recruit players like me. I felt like they only recruited black players that were Uncle Toms.
Rose’s Fab Five sidekick, Jimmy King, said in the documentary, “the faces at Duke – I didn’t like them.”
Many, including The Atlantic’s Ta-Nehisi Coates, have come to Rose’s defense by saying that his comments were the thoughts of a teenager.
That’s very different than making an actual, literal case that, say, Hubert Davis or Elton Brand are Uncle Toms. Rose is dismissive of Christian Laettner, but he actually says he only felt that way, “until I got on the floor with him.” I’m not sure why that’s wrong. I could fill a blog post about the objectionable thoughts I had at 19. It almost gives the thing too much credit to say people are “taking it out of context.”
Coates simplifies the issue by making Rose’s comments about some personal affront to individual Duke players. That is a much less important issue than the attitude that Rose’s unchecked, unqualified, and unrepentant comment fosters in black youth today – that being an aspirational black person diminishes that person’s blackness. It is that attitude that hurts the 10,000 black youth who aren’t good enough at basketball to be the next Jalen Rose.
Hoping to exonerate Rose from trial by public opinion, Coates reads a bit of reformed thinking in Rose’s comments on the 30 for 30 documentary by saying that “it’s quite clear that those aren’t Rose’s feelings today.”
But is that true? On ESPN’s 1st and 10, in a debate between Jalen Rose/Jimmy King and sports reporter Skip Bayless, the 2 Fab Five members skirt the impact of their Uncle Tom comment:
The furthest Rose goes is to admit that he understands what the Duke program represents. But if he understood the Duke program and the recruiting strategy of head coach Mike Krzyzewski he wouldn’t say “I never seen [sic] Coach K in Detroit. I just haven’t.”
Duke opts for less athletic players who value a team game over personal achievement. There has been a long-running debate in the sports world about the tendency for Duke players to perform poorly in the NBA (Uncle Tom poster boy Grant Hill notwithstanding). If Rose currently understood Duke’s strategy he’d realize that Coach K chooses players that fit into his rigid style which values fundamentals and a particular style of play. Duke competes in a sea of hard-nosed recruiters by being the premier institution at which team-oriented players like to play. Duke can be seen as a particular strategy of player recruitment – one that Rose happens to dislike. So it seems that Jalen Rose is actually upset that Duke’s strategy proved better in NCAA ball than that of most other programs. Think: If a coach at Northern Iowa University implemented a similar strategy but fielded a bad team, would Jalen Rose be jealous or would he call black players at that school Uncle Toms? Or is it just because Duke implemented this strategy and was good at it?
When Bayless cites an article by Jason Reid, a black journalist with the Washington Post, in which Reid asserts that ‘Uncle Tom’ is the most offensive term one black man can level against another, and that the term is divisive because it insinuates that a black person’s blackness is diminished if they go to an elite university, take an academic route, or come from a stable family, Rose and King demur and say that the assertion is “off base”.
But Reid’s point is spot on. If one black person shames another black person for ”acting white” – a set of behaviors that blacks themselves have admitted lead to a healthier lifestyle – he forces that person to choose between their identity and their future achievement. At least some blacks will choose the former to their own detriment. ’Uncle Tom’ truncates and monolithicizes what it means to be black.
When Bayless tries to corner Rose into actually answering the root question of this whole debate – whether ‘Uncle Tom’ is a poor turn of phrase to use for a black athlete who goes to Duke or comes from a “good” family – Rose abrogates responsibility by saying “At 17 I had not filter. You saw that bad teeth, bad skin guy, OK. I had no filter.”
This is the first case of reductio ad acne I’ve ever seen. Rose fumbled an opportunity to contextualize his comments – to explicitly say that he didn’t think that way today, to say that his was the wrong way to think about the situation, to say that he was stupid when he was a teenager. But he didn’t and instead allows this teachable moment to fall into the gutter among a whole host of bitterly divisive race-baiting.
Almost as bad as all of this nuance and denial is the attitude of the female co-host who reiterates that she appreciates Rose’s and King’s honesty. This is “Keep it Real” and “Can’t Judge Me” culture which forms a thick exoskeleton around the moral sensibilities of black youth in this country.
Doesn’t Duke have very high academic standards to get into the school and to stay on the team?
Duke isn’t only about running around on a court in shorts trying to put a ball in a hoop.
Most black athletes simply can’t compete academically to get into Duke. So by some black standards high IQ blacks are uncle toms.
I’m not sure Jalen Rose understands that or wants to admit it.
[Chuck: In one of the clips, Rose discusses the fact that he was an Honor Roll student. He doesn't contextualize it though: he was an Honor student at an inner city Detroit High School.]
Doesn’t Duke have very high academic standards to get into the school and to stay on the team?
They have RELATIVELY high standards, like Notre Dame in football.
But in the end, essentially none of those kids have any right to be there academically. Though they do all graduate, probably in very easy subjects with lots of “help”, still better than the other colleges’ “student-athletes”.
He’s got a chip on his shoulder because his father wasn’t around when he was growing up, it’s pretty common. It isn’t Grant Hill’s fault, he should be angry at his father. I give him credit for being honest.
[Chuck: Why should he get credit for being honest when he is wrong? I never have and never will understand this mentality. I take away his credit for being an idiot. As stupid as Rose is, he's a net debtor.]
He is being ridiculous, but on a personal level my heart goes out to him. On his wikipedia page it said he spoke to his father a few times on the phone, but never met him in real life. It is very sad.
“Almost as bad as all of this nuance and denial is the attitude of the female co-host who reiterates that she appreciates Rose’s and King’s honesty.”
Rush Limbaugh was honest too when he gave his opinion about the sports media’s treatment of black quarterbacks. I don’t recall his honesty being appreciated too much though.
I went to a predominantly black high school, something around 75-80% black. There was a core group of black kids that were in my AP and honors classes. They only mingled with one another outside of class whereas us white kids could hang out with anyone else (though tribalism meant we mostly hung with other white kids.) I often heard my black classmates referred to as Uncle Toms or deemed to be “acting white” solely because they valued academic achievement.
It didn’t seem to bother them. Now, thanks to Facebook, I see their continued success and can only assume those comments still don’t bother them.
Good take. But really, the Uncle Tom charge only hurts those kids who aren’t acting out “Uncle Tom” behavior. Acting like an Uncle Tom (at least how it is defined by Rose and many black people in the real world) is nothing to be ashamed of. The kids who are Uncle Toms are already above the fray. It is the kids who haven’t reached above that fray that suffer by being beaten down into a mentality that thinks that studiousness is bad. It is interesting that in the white community “white trash” is about as bad a thing as one white can call another. In white communities it is worse to be called an Uncle Tom. The two pejoratives are perfectly opposite.
Chuck: I agree. It is a sad state of affairs when ignorance is held up as the ideal and deviation from that ideal causes kids to be ostracized. Reminds me of the Chris Rock bit about keeping it real. “Yeah, real dumb.”
@Chuck, Acting like an Uncle Tom (at least how it is defined by Rose and many black people in the real world) is nothing to be ashamed of.
I talked to my brother in law about this. He bristled at thenotion for a while, and then said anyone who thought he was an uncle tom could kiss his ass.. Of course, his whole family is as integrated as they get; his sister will likely marry a white guy (smart black chicks find it hard to find decent black guys). But he gets hassled on public transit whenever they go into NYC.
Personally, I submit that his biggest problem is he’s obviously very accommodating and beta. You just want to pick on him. But I’m guessing there’d be no brotherly love is some assholes wanted to shake him down in a bad part of town.
OK Chuck, your obsession with finger-wagging at Black folk has reached Theater of the Absurd levels, LOL.
First off, let’s examine the whole “acting White” myth, shall we? I propose the following test:
Barack Obama.
Now, keep in mind – he actually IS “White” – that is to say, that is is technically half-White, as his mom was White. He also attended this country’s most prestigious schools, going all the way to his grade school years. Does America’s Black youth, see HIM, as an “Uncle Tom”? Does Mr. Rose? Do you have any idea who Mr. Rose supported in the 08 presidential elections? [Chuck: What a ridiculous argument. Of course Rose supported Obama, but Obama was running against *John McCain* - an old white man. That sort of changes things.] Are you familiar with what rapper – RAPPER – Common, said about the “Obama Effect”? All of this would seem to strongly undercut your argument. In my personal, lifelong experience as a Black Man, this notion that coming from an intact two parent family (as I did), attending elite schools and speaking the Queen’s English is somehow an “Uncle Tom” indictment, is ridiculous. I have never been accused of any such thing, nor have I seen other Black folk around me accused of any such thing, and let’s keep in mind here – I know, have lived among, have attended school with, etc et al, far and away more Black folk, from all walks of life, than you have. [Chuck: Um, Jalen Rose just uttered the phrase to refer to well-to-do black people. The black commenters I've read on this subject have said that the 'Uncle Tom' charge isn't some unicorn myth. Jason Reid whom I linked to in my piece wrote about how baseball player Milton Bradley called him an Uncle Tom after a clubhouse interview. It seems there are plenty of examples here.]
Moreover, the entire “Uncle Tom” thing is a grievous misnomer, for the character upon which the slur is based was the actual hero of the novel, Uncle Tom’s Cabin. The actual villian of the story was another Black named Sambo – and it is his name that should be used, if any such names are to be used at all.
[Chuck: And don't words change meanings? Don't perceptions about certain words evolve from their original meaning? So what's the point of your history lesson? I know what Uncle Tom *meant*, and I know what it means now. Rose himself defined the word as "a black person who is subservient to whites."]
Thirdly – the reason why Grant Hill isn’t seen in the best possible light by NBA fans, isn’t because he can read or speaks well, but because he simply wasn’t that good a player. For better or for worse, the NBA is a much more physically oriented game than it was even 20 years ago, and Hill’s body simply wasn’t up to the rigors of such an intense style of play.
[Chuck: I won't even get riled up by this argument because it is about the stupidest thing you've ever said. Hill was a better college player with a better college resume than Jalen Rose or any other Fab Five member, and his pro career outshined Jalen Rose and is about on par with Chris Webber. Juwan Howard wasn't shit. Ray Jackson and Jimmy King who?]
You know, you’re really starting to reach now. Give the moralizing to Black folks a rest, hmm?
[Chuck: Jalen Rose made the value judgment by saying that Hill and other Dukies were Uncle Toms. Granted, he said he was jealous, but when pressed on the issue Rose refused to contextualize his comments or say that it is stupid to think that way. So if you want someone to give something a rest, turn to your community and tell them to get over the victimhood and learn how to act like adults.]
You commit rhetorical suicide in the opening part of your post. You say that the “acting white” charge is a myth, yet we’re talking about a guy in Jalen Rose who calls uppity Negros “Uncle Toms” which is another way of saying that someone is acting white.
Gorby says, among other things, something that I have long suspected, is the REAL bone of contention who are “picked on” with the label of “acting White”:
“Personally, I submit that his biggest problem is he’s obviously very accommodating and beta. You just want to pick on him. But I’m guessing there’d be no brotherly love is some assholes wanted to shake him down in a bad part of town.”
O: And there it is – as I’ve noted elsewhere (“Shii-Cho Game” & Killing The “Brainy Guys Don’t Get Laid” Fallacy http://www.obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/62839/), [Chuck: Nobody read it the first time; nobody's going to read it now] the real issue isn’t that those Black Men (and Im keeping the focus on them since that is who we’re talking about) speak well, come from two parent homes or went to schools alone, that makes them “Uncle Toms”, but rather, it is their utter lack of charisma, “swag” (read: style), “cool”, that does it. They are awkward, geeky, nerdy – and that is a turnoff, especially to Women (here I have to chuckle at Gorby’s comments about the supposed inability of Black Women to find smart Black Men; they could have easily hooked up with these kinds of Black Men, like his BIL, but didn’t. If he reads my post, he will soon understand why, heh heh…). THIS is why, despite Obama’s good upbringing by his WHITE grandparents and attending the best schools the nation has to offer, that he isn’t referred to as an “Uncle Tom” by Blacks, while Ron Christie, on the other hand, is so bothered by the accusation of “acting White” that he wrote an entire book that reads more like a cathartic exposition. I mean, really, we can just look at tape of him and Obama, and compare and contrast.
“Acting White” has more to do with intonations, body language, voice inflections and the like, that again, since Gorby mention Women, in this case ostensibly smart Black Women, a TURN-OFF. I suspect that the White guys some of these Sistas wind up with, have in fact, more swag than the Christies of the world – and if Essence and Ebony are any indication, when Sistas have the choice between that (White guy) and Obama, it is pretty clear who they choose. I’m jus’ sayin’.
The problem for many Sistas is the problem for an increasing number of White Women in our time – finding that “sweet spot” that my post discusses in terms of a Man who possesses both bookish smarts AND social smarts AND swag. We who study Game understand very well, that Women have a more complex set of “buttons” that have to be pushed, in comparison to Men along attraction lines. When it comes to the topic at hand, it is completely understandable why Gorby’s BIL would feel some kind of way. Yes, I am saying that a goodly part of the consternation lies in the fact that their “nerdy” Black counterpart didn’t find them all that sexy either. Which explains why the Christies of the world (and to an extent we can include the McWhorter’s as well) tend to marry White; because a White “nerdy” gal’s need for social dominance isn’t as pronounced as a Sista’s of the same cohort, all things being equal, just like an Asian gal’s need for social dominance isn’t as pronounced as a White gal’s. I trust you get my point.
Anyway, I’ve ridden NYC’s MTA, both its trains and buses, all over the city, and have never had a problem. But then I don’t present myself as a Carlton or Urkel, either. That might be Gorby’s BIL’s problem. As he has indicated above.
Hmm.
O.
[Chuck: Gorby's BIL notwithstanding, I think the real problem with the Acting White charge and the Uncle Tom charge isn't how the receivers of those pejoratives feel about them. It's how other black kids who may want to read and write instead of run the streets adapt to the "real black" script that is a mirror image of the kid in the neighborhood or the school whose life is made difficult by the bullying and teasing.]
Hi Chuck,
By now you will have seen my latest comment, which picks up where Gorby left off in his, which referenced his Black BIL, and what I think is really going here when some Blacks like Rose refer to others as “Uncle Toms”. Also, I noticed that you didn’t challenge what I said wrt Obama. He is indeed, part White, literally, and, he went to some of the country’s best, most elite schools. Is he viewed as Blacks, Mr. Rose included, as an “Uncle Tom”, Chuck?
Your response?
O.
[Chuck: I answered above, but I'll state it again. You are making a false equivalency. That false equivalency is based on your premise that Jalen Rose has the same relationship with Grant Hill as he does with Barack Obama. But he doesn't. Jalen Rose had an adversarial dog-eat-dog relationship with Grant Hill. It was competitive in nature, and Hill took away from Rose in many ways. Not only on the basketball court, but Hill made Rose *feel bad about himself*. This wasn't Hill's doing, but Rose took the reaction personally. But Obama is a representative of all black people, in Rose's eyes. Obama lifts all black boats, in Rose's eyes. There is no adversarial relationship with Obama as with Hill. Rose was angry and jealous that Hill devalued Rose to a degree by being up on a certain level. In a resource-constrained world, Hill took more of the pie than Rose could get. That's the thing: Rose was jealous, but we all know that jealousy is detrimental to the holder of it. Not only that, it is wrong. It is wrong to fault a stranger for something that they can't control. Holding on to that mentality debilitates the person who is jealous.]
[Chuck: What a ridiculous argument. Of course Rose supported Obama, but Obama was running against *John McCain* - an old white man. That sort of changes things.]
O: How? If one is “acting White”, is it suddenly mitgated if the person they are running against, is actually White themselves? And if so, how does that effect Colin Powell, since he was being seriously considered for a presidential run in his own right at one time? Are you telling me, that Black folks’ views of him would have changed, because his likely opponent was White and old (as most presidential hopefuls are)? Please explain?
[Chuck: Obama is Democrat. McCain is republican establishment - The Man. Colin Powell is subservient to the Republican machine. Acting white, Uncle Tom, etc, etc.]
[Chuck: Um, Jalen Rose just uttered the phrase to refer to well-to-do black people. The black commenters I've read on this subject have said that the 'Uncle Tom' charge isn't some unicorn myth. Jason Reid whom I linked to in my piece wrote about how baseball player Milton Bradley called him an Uncle Tom after a clubhouse interview. It seems there are plenty of examples here.]
O: Yet no one called Ken Griffey Jr. an “Uncle Tom” that I can recall – and we can say the same for Jimmy Rollins or Ryan Howard, too. Care to hazard a guess why that is?
[Chuck: Within baseball? Probably not. But that's because baseball isn't a black dominated sport. Outside of baseball? Who knows. It's not like athletes walk around using the term Uncle Tom all the time. But when they do it is worth investigating the charge.]
[Chuck: And don't words change meanings? Don't perceptions about certain words evolve from their original meaning? So what's the point of your history lesson?
O: To highlight the fact as to just how ignorant Americans are about their own history, literary or otherwise.
[Chuck: Take it up with Jalen Rose then.]
C: I know what Uncle Tom *meant*, and I know what it means now. Rose himself defined the word as “a black person who is subservient to whites.”]
O: And he, and all who use the term, are wrong. Factually, historically, wrong. Period.
[Chuck: See above.]
[Chuck: I won't even get riled up by this argument because it is about the stupidest thing you've ever said. Hill was a better college player with a better college resume than Jalen Rose or any other Fab Five member, and his pro career outshined Jalen Rose and is about on par with Chris Webber. Juwan Howard wasn't shit. Ray Jackson and Jimmy King who?]
O: That’s OK – ask anyone who actually knows b-ball to assess Hill’s actual NBA career, and see what they tell you.
[Chuck: How bout you tell me, O. Let's see what you know. Hill started out well, but was hampered by injury. He's turned in to a handy player in his late 30s. Overall, he's not a HOFer, but he's better than Jalen Rose ever was.]
[Chuck: Jalen Rose made the value judgment by saying that Hill and other Dukies were Uncle Toms. Granted, he said he was jealous, but when pressed on the issue Rose refused to contextualize his comments or say that it is stupid to think that way. So if you want someone to give something a rest, turn to your community and tell them to get over the victimhood and learn how to act like adults.]
O: See my parting shots below.
[Chuck: Nobody read it the first time; nobody's going to read it now]
O: False – according to my blog’s site stats, said post in question was published on Mar 3, 2011; on that day, it garnered exactly 829 unique views. Moreover, your blog, GL Piggy, is the third highest referrer to my blog, with 273 unique visitors in the past 30 days. You were saying?
[Chuck: So you've proven that people who read my blog don't click the link to your blog? Does that say something about my blog or about your blog? Think about it.]
[Chuck: Yeah Obama is real cool.]
O: That’s the best you got – Obama riding a bike?!? Come on, Chuck. By that standard, lance Armstrong would be considered “uncool” too, yet I don’t recall anyone deeming him as such. Whew…
[Chuck: He looked like a fucking nerd. Obama is a nerd. He's not cool. Bush was cooler than him. Obama walks all hunkered down to the ground, wears bike helmets and has his shirt tucked in to high rise jeans while wearning white shoes. Come on.]
[Chuck: Gorby's BIL notwithstanding, I think the real problem with the Acting White charge and the Uncle Tom charge isn't how the receivers of those pejoratives feel about them. It's how other black kids who may want to read and write instead of run the streets adapt to the "real black" script that is a mirror image of the kid in the neighborhood or the school whose life is made difficult by the bullying and teasing.]
O: If that was true, I would have ended up on those same streets, and I didn’t. Of course, my own personal testimony doesn’t count. Gotcha.
[Chuck: I answered above, but I'll state it again. You are making a false equivalency. That false equivalency is based on your premise that Jalen Rose has the same relationship with Grant Hill as he does with Barack Obama. But he doesn't.
O: Actually, you're right - Rose has MORE of a direct relationship with Grant, than he does with Obama, and if anyone ought to know what kind of player Hill is (or better put, isn't), it's Rose. Again: Hill is whacked because he's a whacked player, NOT because he read good).
[Chuck: Hill beat Rose in college which is when Rose supposedly harbored these feelings against Duke and Hill. So, while Hill was never whacked by absolute standards in the NBA, he certainly wasn't whack in college. Hill was top of the game in college.]
c: Jalen Rose had an adversarial dog-eat-dog relationship with Grant Hill. It was competitive in nature, and Hill took away from Rose in many ways.
O: I think the stats and overall career records beg to differ…
C: Not only on the basketball court, but Hill made Rose *feel bad about himself*.
O: How so? Did Rose specifically lay all this out, and if so, where?
[Chuck: See the documentary where Rose said that he was jealous of Grant Hill.]
C: This wasn’t Hill’s doing, but Rose took the reaction personally.
O: See above requests for information.
C: But Obama is a representative of all black people, in Rose’s eyes. Obama lifts all black boats, in Rose’s eyes.
O: First, do you know for certain that Rose backed Obama? And if so, doesn’t his very person – Obama I mean now – undercut the entire premise of the “acting White” argument? Given Obama’s personal story? Please explain?
[Chuck: Yes, he did. I wrote about Rose a while back. He supports Russell Simmons' Hip Hop Action Network.]
C: There is no adversarial relationship with Obama as with Hill. Rose was angry and jealous that Hill devalued Rose to a degree by being up on a certain level. In a resource-constrained world, Hill took more of the pie than Rose could get. That’s the thing: Rose was jealous, but we all know that jealousy is detrimental to the holder of it. Not only that, it is wrong. It is wrong to fault a stranger for something that they can’t control. Holding on to that mentality debilitates the person who is jealous.]
O: But that’s not how you constructed this entire post, Chuck – you weren’t arguing that Rose merely had a set of personal problems; as you always do, you took one Man’s trash talking comments in the heat of battle and attempted to make an overarching commentary about Blacks as a whole, something I have repeatedly chided you for. Hence why I have introduced the Obama Effect per Common’s words. You have yet to actually refute the claims.
Chuck,
Yes, he is totally wrong, although he didn’t even try to hide the fact that he is jealous of Grant Hill because he came from a great black family which is what I meant by him being honest. Jalen needs to grow up and realize that he has been given many gifts also, mainly athletic ability well beyond the norm. Even if his father wasn’t part of his life he did get his athletic ability from him. Jalen needs to get a sense of perspective and look at what some other people have been through in life. He is acting like a 5 year old.
I looked up Theatre of the Absurd on wikipedia and this was part of the definition: “dialogue full of clichés, wordplay, and nonsense; plots that are cyclical or absurdly expansive; either a parody or dismissal of realism” If that doesn’t describe Obsidian’s comments I don’t know what does.
[Chuck: Gorby's BIL notwithstanding, I think the real problem with the Acting White charge and the Uncle Tom charge isn't how the receivers of those pejoratives feel about them. It's how other black kids who may want to read and write instead of run the streets adapt to the "real black" script that is a mirror image of the kid in the neighborhood or the school whose life is made difficult by the bullying and teasing.]
Actually, my BIL is still obviously black: he has *some* swagger. He also dresses very well, takes care of himself, doesn’t smoke/get drunk, at least as long as I’ve known him hasn’t used drugs (soft or hard). He has no problem with cops (though he’s been pulled over for DWB several times, given the neighborhood he lives in).
What he *did* experience in highschool was harrassment from other black kids when he wasn’t obviously stupid; when he got good grades; and his sister got it much harder. His grades were always excellent. But he said that the black kids were unrelenting.
He told me once that he dated a lot in college, before he met my sister; in a nod to Obs, the black chicks expected him to be a lot more Gangsta than he was (that was his word, btw). He used to complain about it.
That said, the (few) other black guys on campus were of two types: Sports jocks, there on scholarships for hoops or whatever, and smart black guys, who had academic and social skills. There were almost none of those at his college. His MBA had more, likely because they collected such guys from all over the country.
He himself thinks that Black Male Culture is deeply anti-intellectual and riffs on anyone who strays from the Stupid Black Man stereotype.
So a bit for Obs (women like the Bad Boy Black Guy meme) and a bit for Chuck and me (Black men shoot each other down if they step out of line).
He says his parents always pushed him to excel – unremittingly. Very Asian of them. His sister is also very highly accomplished, and isn’t the least bit interested in black men, largely because she hates the “stupid black man” image, and most of the black men she knows fit the profile.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that, um, maybe, given these purely anecdotal notes and the evidence from the rest of the culture, that Black American culture is, by and large, powerfully anti-intellectual.
Which means that the common scene in movies of the black nerd or techie (the computer hacker, etc.) as the token black guy is pure PC bullshit.
There’s a limit to the amount I can push my BIL for personal anecdotes on this sort of stuff. I’m getting pretty close to that limit.
I don’t think race realists should focus on Acting White because this plays into the “it’s all culture” narrative.
Sure I think the anti-white culture of the black community should be criticized and the “acting white” meme is an aspect of it, but attributing too much importance to it plays right into the liberal creationist’s hands. Further, it’s not a phenomenon exclusive to blacks as there are analogous (though racially neutral) concepts amongst whites and even Asians.
Nice piece. I buy the argument to some degree, obviously. But I think smart black kids genuinely feel like they’re betraying their culture by not fitting in. I admit, the fat chick-stupid student rejection of the norm might be going on with lots of these black kids, but that doesn’t explain the smart kids who reject “acting white” (success), either. Some of them do.
I think you’re right, of course, on one level, but the depressive culture extends out and grabs smart kids, too.
This happens with white kids, but with white kids, there’s no cultural barrier to joining other white groups. Black kids have to step across an obvious barrier, and must then face acceptance by the white kids; this might provide added pressure to play stupid and act “black”.
I may be getting defensive on this score – my BIL is as bright as any white guy, and he’s not exactly a statistical anomaly. Rare, yes. He admits that himself. His parents are inordinately proud of him, but he says black kids he went to school with basically wrote him off when he wasn’t
– into rap
– got good grades
– got very respectable SATs
BTW, Beta though he is, apparently, he was scoring pretty hard with the Sistas in college – there were literally *no* black men for the having.
A white sistah nabbed him and made him work for it.
Shit, my sister can be such a cunt. We had dinner over the weekend. I steered the talk, but that woman just loves to poke every open wound. Seriously, I feel sorry for this guy. You’d think he was a domestic servant.
Jump for me! Jump for me!
I feel bad for humans with penises whenever I’m around her.
For Lara, from Wikipedia:
“The Theatre of the Absurd (French: Théâtre de l’Absurde) is a designation for plays of absurdist fiction, written by a number of playwrights from the late 1940s to the 1960s, as well as the theatre which has evolved from their work. It expressed the belief that, in a godless universe, human existence has no meaning or purpose and therefore all communication breaks down. Logical construction and argument gives way to irrational and illogical speech and to its ultimate conclusion, silence.[1]” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theatre_of_the_Absurd
I think I used the term properly enough, given the nature of the discussion, but just in case you missed it, here’s the money quote:
“C: There is no adversarial relationship with Obama as with Hill. Rose was angry and jealous that Hill devalued Rose to a degree by being up on a certain level. In a resource-constrained world, Hill took more of the pie than Rose could get. That’s the thing: Rose was jealous, but we all know that jealousy is detrimental to the holder of it. Not only that, it is wrong. It is wrong to fault a stranger for something that they can’t control. Holding on to that mentality debilitates the person who is jealous.]
O: But that’s not how you constructed this entire post, Chuck – you weren’t arguing that Rose merely had a set of personal problems; as you always do, you took one Man’s trash talking comments in the heat of battle and attempted to make an overarching commentary about Blacks as a whole, something I have repeatedly chided you for. Hence why I have introduced the Obama Effect per Common’s words. You have yet to actually refute the claims.
As per usual.”
Like I said, Chuck’s ongoing diatribes along these and related lines, are indeed, a Theater of The Absurd.
Gorby,
Did you see what I said to Chuck above, wrt Obama and Black people? If the argument about being an “Uncle Tom” is true, wouldn’t it have applied itself there, and if not, why?
[Chuck: Obama is blacker than any other Democrat in the field of mainstream candidates. He's the black choice by default. Colin Powell is Uncle Tom because he's a Republican and thus a pawn of the white man. I don't know the extent to which Obama interacted with black Americans outside the academic realm, but I'd be curious to hear his experiences with the Uncle Tom or the Acting white charge.]
As for your BIL, based on what you’ve described of him, I am not at all convinced that he was a Big Man on campus amongst the Sistahood. Usually guys like that get the hand – theirs.
[Chuck: It never amazes me how much of a hater you are Obsidian. You're *always* hating.]
Where did he go to school?
Also, have you read my post that I linked to? I know of what I speak, because I am living proof. You gotta have swag, you can’t be a geek; I called it “Sexy Smart” – and that’s what a lot of guys, regardless of color, DON’T have. When it comes to Black guys, they convert this into the whole enormous “acting White” stuff. Rubbish.
SDTV is right. Talking about “acting white” is something you hear quite a few race liberals say. I’ll have to check out his article on the subject, but is it any surprise black people are going to act “black”. They are black. Jalen’s absentee father is not unusual at all for the black community.
Lara,
Obama’s father wasn’t in his life either; is he an Uncle Tom though? Per OneSTDV’s article (which I read) the answer is “no” – yet, he has a heck of a lot more in common with Grant Hill than Jalen Rose, when you really stop to think about it.
Sidney Poitier isn’t considered an “Uncle Tom” by Black folk; neither is Quincy Jones. I mean, this whole line of (un)reasoning on the part of Chuck is really laughable in its logicl incoherency.
I hope you were able to follow all of that.
O.
[Chuck: Grant Hill is a hell of a lot cooler than President Obama. Hill went to Duke and likely wasn't as studious as Obama in college. Hill didn't look like a nerd even though Obama certainly did. Hill was playing ball while Obama was studying nuclear proliferation and Saul Alinsky. So in absolute terms Grant Hill was not "acting white". Yet it is Jalen Rose who thought of Grant Hill as an Uncle Tom while not all that many black youth think of Barack Obama as one because of what he represents to them.]
Ms. Often-Wrong Lara said:
“White people that try to act “black” are often ridiculed for it.”
O: False – Lisa Stanfield, Teena Marie, Eminem, Robin Thicke, Michael Bolton, are all just a few of the many, many examples of White people who “act Black” and are LOVED by Black folks. Perhaps what you meant to say, is that such people are ridiculed by Whites?
the post that you linked to isn’t, for a comparative example, as fun or easy or clearly understandable as OneSTDV’s post. You might want to reference him for clarity. His style is excellent.
I think a lot of black guys who would otherwise be “geeky” put on the airs of “being black” and then basically drop out of success, because this is the oppressive ant-intellectual culture, if you want to know what I think.
And my BIL may not be a Swaggering Jock, but he’s immensely charming and is always the talkative center of any group. He laughs easily, loudly, and has a good sense of humor (which for men means something, less so for chicks).
I can easily see how he’d be a hit with many of the ladies. He’s also not bad-looking (and he produced some attractive daughters; one, when older, will be a soul-crushing heart-breaker, I guarantee it, as she’s got Little Princess stamped on her forehead in ink already).
This is no Romeo, but when my sister says he was a dog before he met her, I can partly believe it. I understand one black girl still keeps tabs on him. My sister alluded to this last year, in a “Bitches gonna steal my man” kind-of way. Anyway, the few times we’ve been out w/o my sister or their kids, he’s gotten a bit of attention.
Somerville (near Boston) is near where he works. I met up with him for drinks last summer. The bastard got the hot waitress’ number – I had the impression she’d have done him in the restroom is he’d been up to it. So he’s not a loser with the chicks, by any means. Of course, he’s also not Magic Johnson. He’s got this subtle non-geeky charm.
But the self-effacing attitude has to be a turn-off.
So I’d go with: His family had him in a nearly all-white environment; they were supportive; and he never tried to “act black”, which he himself says.
A good job, a solid education and two cute kids with a conservative-background white chick (PC Nazi Lib though she may be) means the dude’s pretty fucking successful. His sister, if she can ever find a man (and I’m not convinced she wants one), will be the same.
His extended family is a mixed bag, but he’s got relatives out west in CA that are pretty borderline. The Pittsburgh family is more or less okay, some Airport management types and whatnot, does anyone there *not* work for the airport?, and one cousin is apparently a cop in DC or Virginia – not sure.
But at least I don’t hear about the failures in the family. Likely, neither does he.
I’ve noticed that blacks who move on up try to put as much distance between them and the ghetto garbage that passes for human life on the ground floor.
From what I can see, that’s a very, very good idea.
That said, I’m going to put my money on young black kids with moxy and brains having to act “black” (ie, “loser”) in order to be accepted into the group.
Next time he has his own family function, I’ll get me and my girl invited and see what impressions I can’t pry loose.
the post that you linked to isn’t, for a comparative example, as fun or easy or clearly understandable as OneSTDV’s post. You might want to reference him for clarity. His style is excellent.
O: Hmm; well, given the source of where this unsolicited critique is coming from, I hardly think you are in a position to opine on the clarity or brevity of anyone’s writing, with all due respect, Gorby; second, upwards of 20 comments were left on said post, virtually all of them praising the writing, so that leaves you clearly in the minority opinion; thirdly, it is too bad One’s formidable writing talents aren’t bent towards actual and achievable goals for his readers, and finally, I notice that you didn’t actually respond to what I actually said.
Interesting.
G: I think a lot of black guys who would otherwise be “geeky” put on the airs of “being black” and then basically drop out of success, because this is the oppressive ant-intellectual culture, if you want to know what I think.
O: I didn’t, but since you told me anyway, I have to ask – on what basis do you say any of this? Especially in light of the points I made in my post and here on this one?
G: And my BIL may not be a Swaggering Jock, but he’s immensely charming and is always the talkative center of any group. He laughs easily, loudly, and has a good sense of humor (which for men means something, less so for chicks).
O: False. One of the defining traits of an Alpha Male is that they have a sense of humor and that they smile quite a bit. Moreover, no one said anything about your BIL or anyone else having to be a “swaggering jock” in order to find success with the ladies. And that includes Black ones.
G: I can easily see how he’d be a hit with many of the ladies. He’s also not bad-looking (and he produced some attractive daughters; one, when older, will be a soul-crushing heart-breaker, I guarantee it, as she’s got Little Princess stamped on her forehead in ink already).
O: YOU may be able to see it but the question is, how did his fellow Sista collegemates see it?
G: This is no Romeo, but when my sister says he was a dog before he met her, I can partly believe it. I understand one black girl still keeps tabs on him. My sister alluded to this last year, in a “Bitches gonna steal my man” kind-of way. Anyway, the few times we’ve been out w/o my sister or their kids, he’s gotten a bit of attention.
O: Always take anything a Woman says with a grain of salt. Another standard operating Game procedure.
G: Somerville (near Boston) is near where he works. I met up with him for drinks last summer. The bastard got the hot waitress’ number – I had the impression she’d have done him in the restroom is he’d been up to it. So he’s not a loser with the chicks, by any means. Of course, he’s also not Magic Johnson. He’s got this subtle non-geeky charm.
O: That’s just it though, Gorby – many geeky guys, HAVE NO CHARM. Please go back and take the time to actually read what I said in my post. It lays it all out right there. Get over your preconceived notions and your ideology, and read the dang article.
G: But the self-effacing attitude has to be a turn-off.
O: It is indeed, if it is too much and over the top; DLV in extremis.
G: So I’d go with: His family had him in a nearly all-white environment; they were supportive; and he never tried to “act black”, which he himself says.
O: What does that mean? Please explain? Does Barack Obama “act White”?
G: A good job, a solid education and two cute kids with a conservative-background white chick (PC Nazi Lib though she may be) means the dude’s pretty fucking successful. His sister, if she can ever find a man (and I’m not convinced she wants one), will be the same.
O: *shrugs* I personally many such Black Men and have all my life. No big whup.
G: His extended family is a mixed bag, but he’s got relatives out west in CA that are pretty borderline. The Pittsburgh family is more or less okay, some Airport management types and whatnot, does anyone there *not* work for the airport?, and one cousin is apparently a cop in DC or Virginia – not sure.
O: OK.
G: But at least I don’t hear about the failures in the family. Likely, neither does he.
O: OK – I think…?
G: I’ve noticed that blacks who move on up try to put as much distance between them and the ghetto garbage that passes for human life on the ground floor.
O: That’s about right – the same as White folks who have White Trash relatives try to put as much social and geographical distance between themselves and them as much as possible.
G: From what I can see, that’s a very, very good idea.
O: Monkey see, monkey do.
G: That said, I’m going to put my money on young black kids with moxy and brains having to act “black” (ie, “loser”) in order to be accepted into the group.
O: Again: was Obama “acting Black” when he was in Columbia and/or Harvard? Was he “acting Black” when he was in Chitown? Please explain?
G: Next time he has his own family function, I’ll get me and my girl invited and see what impressions I can’t pry loose.
O: You need to expand your circle of Black people if you’re going to spend so very much of your time writing about them/us. relying on one Black guy for your source of info is like my relying on you to tell me what more than 200 million White Americans are like…
Oh fuck, did Chuck put up this post just to have 1000 comments, 850 of them being Obsidian restating his opponent’s arguments as strawmen and lgoing off on absurd, unrelated tangents?
Jalen Rose is a white-hating, racist, overrated prick who dislikes intelligence and paid for his own biography (this documentary) to try to puff up his lack of accomplishment and overratedness in college and the pros.
e post that you linked to isn’t, for a comparative example, as fun or easy or clearly understandable as OneSTDV’s post. You might want to reference him for clarity. His style is excellent.
O: Hmm; well, given the source of where this unsolicited critique is coming from, I hardly think you are in a position to opine on the clarity or brevity of anyone’s writing, with all due respect, Gorby;
Hey, it takes a spewer of shit to recognize one. Just because I spew doesn’t mean I want to read spewers.
OneSTDV is still a heckuva lot easier to read than you. And me. But I don’t blog.
[Chuck: I'll rank them One, then Gorby, then O. One follows a logical pattern while Gorby's writing is filled with relatable anecdotes and snappy points. Neither can be said of Obsidian's writing which honestly just wears me out only because it is so tedious. Honestly, Obsidian, your arguments are hard to follow - not because they're so brilliant but because you aren't structuring them well. It's about delivery. Maybe work on that if you want to "out hit" me by August or whatever.]
second, upwards of 20 comments were left on said post, virtually all of them praising the writing, so that leaves you clearly in the minority opinion; thirdly, it is too bad One’s formidable writing talents aren’t bent towards actual and achievable goals for his readers, and finally, I notice that you didn’t actually respond to what I actually said.
I didn’t because there’s not much point.
BTW, this is my issue:
You do line-by-line responses. I suggest this works to hide what you intend to say and mean. Anyway, it’s VERY hard to respond to. Eyes weary just looking at this line-by-line thing.
[Chuck: Ditto, though I'll admit to being sucked in by this style of argumentation, it leaves a lot to be desired. It devolves into a shit show of whitty quips and digs. Of course, this benefits my game over Obsidian's, but many larger points are lost.]
You would get *much* more favorable responses if you just stopped using this format. I guarantee you every reader will agree, bar none.
Just compose some paragraphs on-point, and leave the line-by-line. You add nothing and take away a fair bit with that method.
G: I think a lot of black guys who would otherwise be “geeky” put on the airs of “being black” and then basically drop out of success, because this is the oppressive ant-intellectual culture, if you want to know what I think.
O: I didn’t, but since you told me anyway, I have to ask – on what basis do you say any of this? Especially in light of the points I made in my post and here on this one?</I.
Good book by my favorite Black dude, McWhorter: "Losing the Race". Go read it, in its entirety.
Also, comments from people I know, none of whom are ghetto.
G: And my BIL may not be a Swaggering Jock, but he’s immensely charming and is always the talkative center of any group. He laughs easily, loudly, and has a good sense of humor (which for men means something, less so for chicks).
O: False. One of the defining traits of an Alpha Male is that they have a sense of humor and that they smile quite a bit. Moreover, no one said anything about your BIL or anyone else having to be a “swaggering jock” in order to find success with the ladies. And that includes Black ones.
A lot of black ladies want asshole-jock tough guys, from what I hear. It’s very Manly.
So I guess my BIL has some alpha traits, then. His Manginaness with my sister must be something else.
G: I can easily see how he’d be a hit with many of the ladies. He’s also not bad-looking (and he produced some attractive daughters; one, when older, will be a soul-crushing heart-breaker, I guarantee it, as she’s got Little Princess stamped on her forehead in ink already).
O: YOU may be able to see it but the question is, how did his fellow Sista collegemates see it?
According to my sister, he was, … easily distracted in college. She was his second long-term GF, but the guy was definitely not celibate. I got the impression he got around a bit.
That said, her reference point is me, and while she doesn’t know the half of it, she assumed I’m a jerkwad cad who slums it with whores. You can tell my sister and I get along.
G: This is no Romeo, but when my sister says he was a dog before he met her, I can partly believe it. I understand one black girl still keeps tabs on him. My sister alluded to this last year, in a “Bitches gonna steal my man” kind-of way. Anyway, the few times we’ve been out w/o my sister or their kids, he’s gotten a bit of attention.
O: Always take anything a Woman says with a grain of salt. Another standard operating Game procedure.
Nah, I can see him getting some ass if wants it. Well, before he got two kids and a desk job, anyway.
G: Somerville (near Boston) is near where he works. I met up with him for drinks last summer. The bastard got the hot waitress’ number – I had the impression she’d have done him in the restroom is he’d been up to it. So he’s not a loser with the chicks, by any means. Of course, he’s also not Magic Johnson. He’s got this subtle non-geeky charm.
O: That’s just it though, Gorby – many geeky guys, HAVE NO CHARM. Please go back and take the time to actually read what I said in my post. It lays it all out right there. Get over your preconceived notions and your ideology, and read the dang article.
He has charm. He just has no bad-boy swagger.
Everyone thinks he’s mondo charming.
G: But the self-effacing attitude has to be a turn-off.
O: It is indeed, if it is too much and over the top; DLV in extremis.
It’s only with his wife. My sister can be a serious cunt.
G: So I’d go with: His family had him in a nearly all-white environment; they were supportive; and he never tried to “act black”, which he himself says.
O: What does that mean? Please explain? Does Barack Obama “act White”?
Yes. Definitely. If he weren’t President, he’d be considered a bit of a sellout. I’ve heard blacks say this – “Anyway, he be white.” There was lots of criticism of him not really being black.
G: A good job, a solid education and two cute kids with a conservative-background white chick (PC Nazi Lib though she may be) means the dude’s pretty fucking successful. His sister, if she can ever find a man (and I’m not convinced she wants one), will be the same.
O: *shrugs* I personally many such Black Men and have all my life. No big whup.
I know. There are lots of these. I keep making this point. What’s yours? G: I’ve noticed that blacks who move on up try to put as much distance between them and the ghetto garbage that passes for human life on the ground floor.
O: That’s about right – the same as White folks who have White Trash relatives try to put as much social and geographical distance between themselves and them as much as possible.
Not the case. I know lots of white families who associate closely with their trashier or less successful relatives.
Not me. I have nothing but contempt for white prole culture. It humiliates me. No one calls me out for not acting white.
G: That said, I’m going to put my money on young black kids with moxy and brains having to act “black” (ie, “loser”) in order to be accepted into the group.
O: Again: was Obama “acting Black” when he was in Columbia and/or Harvard? Was he “acting Black” when he was in Chitown? Please explain?
A lot of talk was like this:
He does something we don’t like: He’s a sellout.
He does something we like: He’s black.
G: Next time he has his own family function, I’ll get me and my girl invited and see what impressions I can’t pry loose.
O: You need to expand your circle of Black people if you’re going to spend so very much of your time writing about them/us. relying on one Black guy for your source of info is like my relying on you to tell me what more than 200 million White Americans are like…
Should I go hang out at the local crack house, or what?
G: Hey, it takes a spewer of shit to recognize one. Just because I spew doesn’t mean I want to read spewers.
O: If that’s the case you shouldn’t be spending your time in the HBDsphere.
G: OneSTDV is still a heckuva lot easier to read than you. And me. But I don’t blog.
O: That’s not saying much, given that One has a penchant for hyperbole and purple prose in the extreme – to say nothing of boring to tears repetitiveness with his “everybody’s picking on me!” refrains…
G: I didn’t because there’s not much point.
O: Translation – I didn’t because it doesn’t fit the script. There, fixed that for ya.
G: BTW, this is my issue:
O: You wouldn’t be Gorby if you didn’t have at least one…
G: You do line-by-line responses. I suggest this works to hide what you intend to say and mean. Anyway, it’s VERY hard to respond to. Eyes weary just looking at this line-by-line thing.
O: It is designed to be very precise; this way, nothing is lost in translation. There can be no misinterpretation, because everyone can see exactly what was said and more importantly, in what context it was said.
G: You would get *much* more favorable responses if you just stopped using this format. I guarantee you every reader will agree, bar none.
G: Just compose some paragraphs on-point, and leave the line-by-line. You add nothing and take away a fair bit with that method.
O: So sayeth the self-professed shit-spewer. Gotcha.
O: What is up with White guys and their nauseatingly bad habit of giving unsolicited advice? Sheesh!
G: Good book by my favorite Black dude, McWhorter: “Losing the Race”. Go read it, in its entirety.
O: I know McWhorter very well; he’s from my hometown and we lived in another; I would pass by his home quite often. Perhaps you are familiar with his other works?
G: Also, comments from people I know, none of whom are ghetto.
O: For shame.
G: A lot of black ladies want asshole-jock tough guys, from what I hear. It’s very Manly.
O: How many Black Women do you actually know, in order to know what they actually want? I’ll wait.
G: So I guess my BIL has some alpha traits, then. His Manginaness with my sister must be something else.
O: I suppose being pussy-whipped knows no color.
G: According to my sister, he was, … easily distracted in college. She was his second long-term GF, but the guy was definitely not celibate. I got the impression he got around a bit.
O: Looks can be deceiving…
G: That said, her reference point is me, and while she doesn’t know the half of it, she assumed I’m a jerkwad cad who slums it with whores. You can tell my sister and I get along.
O: TMI
G: Nah, I can see him getting some ass if wants it. Well, before he got two kids and a desk job, anyway.
O: His homelife says otherwise…
G: He has charm. He just has no bad-boy swagger.
O: You don’t need to be a “bad boy” in order to have swag. You’d know that if you read the article.
G: Everyone thinks he’s mondo charming.
O: Everyone but his wife, your sister – the – and I’m using your words now – “cunt”.
G: It’s only with his wife. My sister can be a serious cunt.
O: Which proves his utter lack of Game. It is in the home that it counts the most.
G: Yes. Definitely. If he weren’t President, he’d be considered a bit of a sellout. I’ve heard blacks say this – “Anyway, he be white.” There was lots of criticism of him not really being black.
O: I am quite confident that I know more Black folk than you, and I have yet to hear anyone of them say that they thought that President (then Senator) Obama was an “Uncle Tom”. None. Moreover, his vote totals speak for itself – if he was indeed such a “sellout” another of the Democratic hopefuls, most like Hilary Clinton, would have gotten the Black Vote. You were saying?
G: I know.
O: No, evidently you don’t.
G: There are lots of these.
O: Indeed they are.
G: I keep making this point.
O: Actually, much of your time is spent talking, or should I say ranting, about the Black underclass. Obsessions run deep, hmm?
G: What’s yours?
O: See above.
G: Not the case. I know lots of white families who associate closely with their trashier or less successful relatives.
O: I hate to be the bearer of bad news Gorby, BUT YOU DON’T SPEAK FOR ALL WHITE PEOPLE.
G: Not me.
O: That’s right – not YOU. Keep the “analysis” there.
G: A lot of talk was like this:
He does something we don’t like: He’s a sellout.
O: “Something” like what, Gorby? Do tell?
G: He does something we like: He’s black
O: That’s confirmed by the vote totals.
G: Should I go hang out at the local crack house, or what?
O: I ddin’t know they had those in lily White New England…
“Oh fuck, did Chuck put up this post just to have 1000 comments, 850 of them being Obsidian restating his opponent’s arguments as strawmen and lgoing off on absurd, unrelated tangents?”
O: Hyperbole anyone?
“Jalen Rose is a white-hating, racist, overrated prick who dislikes intelligence and paid for his own biography (this documentary) to try to puff up his lack of accomplishment and overratedness in college and the pros.”
C: One follows a logical pattern while Gorby's writing is filled with relatable anecdotes and snappy points.
O: OneSTDV is "logical"? I would say something in response to that but I want to remain civil and nice...
[Chuck: His arguments follow tightly one from the other. Unlike yours.]
C: Neither can be said of Obsidian’s writing which honestly just wears me out only because it is so tedious.
O: Translation – there aren’t any links to YouTube videos…
[Chuck: Nah, I'll settle for flow and cogency. I'd also accept a avoidance of those flaccid attempts at humor and the schticky sign-off phrases that weren't, aren't, and never will be humorous to anyone but yourself.]
C: Honestly, Obsidian, your arguments are hard to follow – not because they’re so brilliant but because you aren’t structuring them well. It’s about delivery.
O: Translation – my ADHD goes off everytime I try to sitdown to read what you write…
[Chuck: Funny, I don't have that affliction. That you bring out similar symptoms in me and other readers speaks badly of you.]
C: Maybe work on that if you want to “out hit” me by August or whatever.]
O: LOL. They say when people begin to attack you instead of your points you can be sure that you have won the argument. And as for my “out hitting” you, let’s be clear – I was discussing as it related specifically to Game posts. I am confident I will reach my goal.
[Chuck: There's a point when you've eradicated a person's points to the extent that you can only attack their fanciful notions that they haven't been beaten. That may look like ad hom, but it isn't. and you can have the Game post contest. I don't really write that much about Game anyway.]
[Chuck: Ditto, though I'll admit to being sucked in by this style of argumentation, it leaves a lot to be desired.
O: What can I say; it's contagious!
C: It devolves into a shit show of whitty quips and digs. Of course, this benefits my game over Obsidian's, but many larger points are lost.]
O: The “larger points” are lost the moment you begin to type in a YouTube-filled reverie…
@Obsidian O: If that’s the case you shouldn’t be spending your time in the HBDsphere.
I was tryng to help you out. It’s your style of response that gets me : line-by-line stuff.
Try composing in paragraphs. Really. That’s got nothing to do with content.
Believe me, everyone will agree with me.
O: That’s not saying much, given that One has a penchant for hyperbole and purple prose in the extreme – to say nothing of boring to tears repetitiveness with his “everybody’s picking on me!” refrains…
I mean, write in paragraphs and bunch comments and ideas together. This line-by line thing is very 1987 and it’s hard to read.
G: BTW, this is my issue:
O: You wouldn’t be Gorby if you didn’t have at least one…
Dude, I have so many. Don’t undersell me.
O: It is designed to be very precise; this way, nothing is lost in translation.
It’s the opposite in functional reality. It’s not precise. It’s obscurant. Really, it is.
There can be no misinterpretation, because everyone can see exactly what was said and more importantly, in what context it was said.
But in fact, you’ve been able to consistently take much of what I write – which comes in clusters and bunches – out of context. There were whole debates on your blog where stuff was continuously taken out of context. I’m not the only one who noticed, either.
The method obscures. Get others to vote on it. Ask them.
G: Just compose some paragraphs on-point, and leave the line-by-line. You add nothing and take away a fair bit with that method.
O: So sayeth the self-professed shit-spewer. Gotcha.
Don’t take my word for it. Ask others.
O: What is up with White guys and their nauseatingly bad habit of giving unsolicited advice? Sheesh!
One of many nauseating characteristics I sport.
G: Good book by my favorite Black dude, McWhorter: “Losing the Race”. Go read it, in its entirety.
O: I know McWhorter very well; he’s from my hometown and we lived in another; I would pass by his home quite often. Perhaps you are familiar with his other works?
All of them. Love them. Excellent linguist. Great theory on the use of auxiliary verbs (adopted from Welsh).
Didn’t comment on his book. His thesis: Black American culture is relentlessly anti-intellectual and actually despises intellectual activity.
Many agree.
G: Also, comments from people I know, none of whom are ghetto.
O: For shame.
You’re right. I’ll go hang out on street corners and chat up the local tough guys next time I’m in NYC.
O: How many Black Women do you actually know, in order to know what they actually want? I’ll wait.
Chicks I work with. Two I dated. Two other black chicks weren’t American, so they don’t count. My BIL’s sister, and her entourage. Women at work (lots in all media jobs I’ve ever had), all educated but the ones hired for being pretty. My neighbor’s wife (They’re 50+; he’s white; both second marriages).
O: I suppose being pussy-whipped knows no color.
*THIS* we agree on. Ring the bells and go home, kids.
G: Nah, I can see him getting some ass if wants it. Well, before he got two kids and a desk job, anyway.
O: His homelife says otherwise…
My sister is (was) hot enough and she’s white. His homelife notwithstanding, he wasn’t alpha (per se), but clearly had some alpha qualities, if a sense of humor and charm are alpha.
G: Everyone thinks he’s mondo charming.
O: Everyone but his wife, your sister – the – and I’m using your words now – “cunt”.
Oh, she thinks he’s charming. She’s just a cunt. She needs to be put in her place from time to time. He won’t do it. Too “nice”. His mom always demanded her sons be “nice”.
G: It’s only with his wife. My sister can be a serious cunt.
O: Which proves his utter lack of Game. It is in the home that it counts the most.
Even bad boys fuck up at home. Men always do. That’s not color-dependent.
O: I am quite confident that I know more Black folk than you, and I have yet to hear anyone of them say that they thought that President (then Senator) Obama was an “Uncle Tom”. None. Moreover, his vote totals speak for itself – if he was indeed such a “sellout” another of the Democratic hopefuls, most like Hilary Clinton, would have gotten the Black Vote. You were saying?
I’m no voting expert. But I’ll say it:
If a monkey trained to throw bananas had gotten up on a stage, but was black, black people would have voted for it. The fact that he speaks well and is clever is just a bonus. We all know that.
O: Actually, much of your time is spent talking, or should I say ranting, about the Black underclass. Obsessions run deep, hmm?
The black underclass is so outrageously catastrophically horrible it bears singling out. It’s America’s biggest social disaster. It’s a national failing on a monumental scale. It’s an urban blight. It’s multi-generational. It seems intractable.
No white poverty is even nearly as bad. No white underclass anywhere is as bad as this. it’s so embarrassing, the American black underclass makes places like South Africa look good.
G: Should I go hang out at the local crack house, or what?
O: I ddin’t know they had those in lily White New England…
I’m sure there are some brothas here that could oblige me.
[Chuck: Obama is Democrat. McCain is republican establishment - The Man. Colin Powell is subservient to the Republican machine. Acting white, Uncle Tom, etc, etc.]
O: OK, so lemme get this straight – You can be an “Uncle Tom” Black Man-as-political-candidate, ONLY if you’re a Republican – right? Even though, if you’re on the Democratic side, and you’re half White, and you attend the country’s most elite schools, you’re NOT an “Uncle Tom”? Do I have that right?
[Chuck: Blacks consider any black who is perceived to be working with The Man to be an Uncle Tom. Usually The Man is associated with the conservative Republicans.]
[Chuck: Within baseball? Probably not.
O: Thank you.
[Chuck: Within a predominantly white and Hispanic sport, Ken Griffey's competitors - having already abrogated "real blackness" by participating in baseball - wouldn't have much room to call him an Uncle Tom.]
[Chuck: Take it up with Jalen Rose then.]
O: Nice dodge, but no cigar.
[Chuck: See above.]
O: I did; see my reply above.
[Chuck: How bout you tell me, O. Let's see what you know. Hill started out well, but was hampered by injury. He's turned in to a handy player in his late 30s. Overall, he's not a HOFer, but he's better than Jalen Rose ever was.]
O: Alright, if you insist – ask anyone who knows basketball well this simple question: Lebron, or Grant Hill?
[Chuck: Why would I do that? Lebron James didn't call Grant Hill an Uncle Tom. Jalen Rose did. Interesting that you *massively* shift the goal posts on this one.]
The. End.
[Chuck: So you've proven that people who read my blog don't click the link to your blog? Does that say something about my blog or about your blog? Think about it.]
O: I have. It means that you are wrong when “nobody’s gonna read what I write”. I have proven that statement by you to be fallacious. Think about it.
[Chuck: He looked like a fucking nerd. Obama is a nerd. He's not cool. Bush was cooler than him. Obama walks all hunkered down to the ground, wears bike helmets and has his shirt tucked in to high rise jeans while wearning white shoes. Come on.]
O: You gotta be kidding me; GWB is like every other White guy save Robin Thicke, Hugh Jackman and that Riverdance guy, he can’t keep a beat if his life depended on it. A guy who dances like he’s Rain Man, IS NOT COOL. Now compare and contrast to Obama’s appearance on the Ellen Degeneres show…
[Chuck: And why are you basing coolness on the ability to dance? I'd rather compare baseball throwing form. Obama throws like a bitch. GWB, not. Dancing is a greater beta/lesser alpha thing. Men can attain a certain status by being able to dance, but at some point dancing for men detracts from coolness or alphaness.]
[Chuck: Hill beat Rose in college which is when Rose supposedly harbored these feelings against Duke and Hill. So, while Hill was never whacked by absolute standards in the NBA, he certainly wasn't whack in college. Hill was top of the game in college.]
O: I thought we were talking about Hill’s NBA record?
[Chuck: You might have been, but why would we? Rose said that he thought of Duke's blacks as Uncle Toms while he was in college. He held these feelings against Hill in college. If you want to talk NBA we can, but realize that you're detracting from the point. We can talk about it though, just for fun.]
[Chuck: See the documentary where Rose said that he was jealous of Grant Hill.]
O: I have since viewed it. Very interesting stuff.
[Chuck: Thoughts?]
[Chuck: Yes, he did. I wrote about Rose a while back. He supports Russell Simmons' Hip Hop Action Network.]
O: Yes, I vaguely recall you foaming at the mouth about someone Black or other, and the name “Jalen Rose” being in the subject line…
[Chuck: Yeah, a call to blindly "get out the vote" which is a partisan move to draw youth and minorities to the polls in order to boost Democrat's numbers. Fine and everything if the kids who were going to vote were doing it from a place of knowledge. If you need Jalen Rose and Russell Simmons to convince you to go vote then you have no reason voting in the first place.]
You forgot to respond to the following:
“But that’s not how you constructed this entire post, Chuck – you weren’t arguing that Rose merely had a set of personal problems; as you always do, you took one Man’s trash talking comments in the heat of battle and attempted to make an overarching commentary about Blacks as a whole, something I have repeatedly chided you for. Hence why I have introduced the Obama Effect per Common’s words. You have yet to actually refute the claims.”
[Chuck: What heat of battle? Rose made the statement on his documentary and he didn't back down from them on ESPN. I'm pointing out that this mentality does more to harm the black community than the empowerment aspects of the Fab Five does to improve the same community. Net losses all the way around.]
Now to return to the point about Hill and how he is viewed as a player by fans:
The point is, that Hill’s sytle of play, having come from the Duke system, is in many ways ill-suited to the modern day NBA, where the game is not only much faster paced, but it is also HIGHLY physical; Hill’s body simply could not withstand the rigors of play at that level, and faced several potentially career ending injuries at the height of his career. There have been fundamentally tougher Men at his height and position, as well as others, from Shaq and down to AI. Fact.
[Chuck: Hill has played in 931 NBA games. AI 914. AI is out of the league. Hill is still playing. Hill has played in 7 All-Star games and is the 50th most popular player among fans at Basketball-reference.com - the most respected sports stats site in the biz. Also, do you have any evidence that Hill's body couldn't hold up *because his body was more ill-prepared for the NBA* rather than the more obvious reason that Hill was unlucky? Until then it would benefit you to not speculate on things you don't know about.]
Hill is regarded as not all that because his body ain’t all that, and that matters in today’s league. Compare him to other players at his height and position, like Kobe, or Lebron, and and ask folks who know b-ball well who they think is a better player overall, and see what they tell you. Heck, point guards like Dwayne Wade and Jason Kidd are far and away better, on both ends of the floor, and they’re shorter AND play fundamentally different positions. See if anyone actually disagrees with what I said here.
[Chuck: Those players are better than Hill. But we weren't talking about them. They're also even further and away better than Jalen Rose or the other four of the Fab Five. And you want to talk about Duke's game? You have Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Chris Duhon, Corey Maggette. They've all fared well in the NBA after coming from the Duke style of play.]
It has nothing to do with his family background or being a “Buppie” or an “Uncle Tom” or anything like that. Hill was and is seen as being soft in comparison to the aforementioned players, because simply put, he ain’t really built like that to compete at a truly high level.
[Chuck: Again, Jalen Rose called him an Uncle Tom and it had nothing to do with Hill's NBA career since the sentiment was held before Hill and Rose made the NBA. And Rose himself comments that he thought Hill was an Uncle Tom because he was jealous of Hill and thought that Hill's differnce implied that he wasn't "really" black.]
[Chuck: Obama is blacker than any other Democrat in the field of mainstream candidates. He's the black choice by default.
O: That would explain why, for example, Michael Steele - a homegrown, Black Man - lost to a White candidate for the US Senate, in a state with a considerable Black population - right?
C: Colin Powell is Uncle Tom because he's a Republican and thus a pawn of the white man.
O: Whew! And you have the nerve to call *my* logic distorted?!? [Chuck: Do I really have to tell you that these are not my sentiments but the thinking of blacks who throw the term Uncle Tom around?]
C: I don’t know the extent to which Obama interacted with black Americans outside the academic realm, but I’d be curious to hear his experiences with the Uncle Tom or the Acting white charge.]
O: What, you mean, you haven’t read his autobiography? And, trust me, if he was being called an “Uncle Tom” we’d all know about it by now.
“As for your BIL, based on what you’ve described of him, I am not at all convinced that he was a Big Man on campus amongst the Sistahood. Usually guys like that get the hand – theirs.”
[Chuck: It never amazes me how much of a hater you are Obsidian. You're *always* hating.]
O: LOL. Actually Chuck, this comes from the Sistas I know who actually went to university. They told me they treated guys like Gorby’s BIL and Ron Christie like a stop sign. Go figure. *shrugs*
[Chuck: And you've met Gorby's BIL? You know about Ron Christie's personal dating history? Further, you assume that those men were trying to mack the same types of girls you know?]
[Chuck: Grant Hill is a hell of a lot cooler than President Obama.
O: That's debatable; what isn't is that Hill is most certainly soft.
C: Hill went to Duke and likely wasn't as studious as Obama in college. Hill didn't look like a nerd even though Obama certainly did.
O: Uh, did you know that Obama ran ball while in highschool, and one of his highschool photos clearly features him in a "player" type suit and an afro hairstyle? Or did you miss all that?
[Chuck: And that makes him cool automatically? People are allowed to play make believe one day a year.]
C: Hill was playing ball while Obama was studying nuclear proliferation and Saul Alinsky. So in absolute terms Grant Hill was not “acting white”.
O: As I’ve said, I know no one, save Jalen Rose, who has accused of Hill as “acting White”. No one.
[Chuck: But we're talking about Jalen Rose and Grant Hill. Nobody else. Have you ever heard one black insinuate that another black person was an Uncle Tom?]
C: Yet it is Jalen Rose who thought of Grant Hill as an Uncle Tom while not all that many black youth think of Barack Obama as one because of what he represents to them.]
Also,there’s been alot of truth thrown at Obsidian over the last two years,yet noone has EVER referred to him as the rather obvious “Obsi(m)ian.” Why is this?Has whitey just gone and got lazy?
Uncle Tom as a derogatory label was invented by black activists that absolutely knew the content of the novel.
The character Tom was a non-threatening black created by whites. A black man that white society could approve of, hence the model of what not to be. The Uncle Tom slur isn’t some accident of history, where the true meaning of the term was forgotten. It was completely intentional.
Good morning Chuck,
Lots to respond to here, so let’s get right to it:
[Chuck: His arguments follow tightly one from the other. Unlike yours.]
O: Really, now? Care to put that to the test?
[Chuck: Nah, I'll settle for flow and cogency. I'd also accept a(n) avoidance of those flaccid attempts at humor and the schticky sign-off phrases that weren't, aren't, and never will be humorous to anyone but yourself.]
O: I should hope not; they were never meant to be humorous. As for cogency, I think this post, among a great many by you, shows your understanding of the word leaves a heck of a lot to be desired…
[Chuck: Funny, I don't have that affliction. That you bring out similar symptoms in me and other readers speaks badly of you.]
O: Nah, that’s just the consternation on you and your ilk’s part that I would deign to challenge the ridiculously racist drivel you write on the regular, is all.
[Chuck: There's a point when you've eradicated a person's points to the extent that you can only attack their fanciful notions that they haven't been beaten. That may look like ad hom, but it isn't.
O: That you do the latter so very well and the former so piss-poorly, indeed conveys a powerful message about you.
C: and you can have the Game post contest. I don't really write that much about Game anyway.]
O: In this, you and OneSTDV have a heck of a lot in common. As do much of the (virtually all White) Manosphere…
[Chuck: Blacks consider any black who is perceived to be working with The Man to be an Uncle Tom. Usually The Man is associated with the conservative Republicans.]
O: By that reasoning, MLK is an Uncle Tom, since not only did he come from a long line of black Republicans and more than likely voted that way himself, but he worked very closely with a Dixiecrat in LBJ. You really do need to get out of the sticks more.
[Chuck: You act as if I invented this reasoning.]
[Chuck: Within a predominantly white and Hispanic sport, Ken Griffey's competitors - having already abrogated "real blackness" by participating in baseball - wouldn't have much room to call him an Uncle Tom.]
O: Uh huh. Blacks’ historical participation in baseball is without question, and even today isn’t insignificant. I maintain my previous point.
[Chuck: Why would I do that? Lebron James didn't call Grant Hill an Uncle Tom. Jalen Rose did. Interesting that you *massively* shift the goal posts on this one.]
O: The “massive shifting of goalposts” began when you said the following:
[Chuck: Wow. You one-upped an 8.0 shift to one that registers 9 + on the Richter scale. You shift onto Lebron James, who we weren't talking about, and you start talking about something totally unrelated. You really need to work on not doing this.]
“That is a much less important issue than the attitude that Rose’s unchecked, unqualified, and unrepentant comment fosters in black youth today – that being an aspirational black person diminishes that person’s blackness. It is that attitude that hurts the 10,000 black youth who aren’t good enough at basketball to be the next Jalen Rose…This is “Keep it Real” and “Can’t Judge Me” culture which forms a thick exoskeleton around the moral sensibilities of black youth in this country.”
You then followed these statements in your post with the following comment in response to me:
“So if you want someone to give something a rest, turn to your community and tell them to get over the victimhood and learn how to act like adults.”
The point you are making here is clear, though deeply, deeply misguided: you are saying that Rose’s views with regard to Hill are EMBLEMATIC OF BLACK PEOPLE AS A WHOLE, and that is where I call BULLSHIT on your crap. It is completely cool to take Rose singularly to task for comments he made about a singular individual, Grant Hill. But for you to attempt to craft an overarching argument on an entire group of people, numbering some 40 million people, it really strains credulity.
[Chuck: If you still think that any of my comments are meant to impugn *all* black people then you're an idiot.]
As the following Wikipedia link shows, the whole “Acting White” urban mythology, is far from a settled matter and accepted fact of life; indeed, if anything, the election of Barack Obama, seems to utterly discredit the entire premise of the argument (which I said earlier and which you stubbornly refused to directly address, hmm): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white
Anyway, I was speaking to Hill’s NBA performance and how he stacks up against other players of similar height and position.
[Chuck: Just to be clear, *we* weren't discussing that. You were. I never argued that Hill was the best NBA player of all Time. He's better than Jalen Rose, Juwan Howard, Ray Jackson, and Jimmy King. About on par with Chris Webber. So have at it. YOu'll be talking to yourself. Nothing new I'm sure.]
[Chuck: And why are you basing coolness on the ability to dance? I'd rather compare baseball throwing form. Obama throws like a bitch. GWB, not. Dancing is a greater beta/lesser alpha thing. Men can attain a certain status by being able to dance, but at some point dancing for men detracts from coolness or alphaness.]
[Chuck: Sweet, you're basing it off something that you wrote. Get real.]
Money quote: “…a Man who has moves on the dancefloor instantly has a decided advantage over other guys when it comes to upping his notch count. There’s simply no getting around that fact. Dancing is one of a number of proxies Women use to gauge a Man’s sexual prowess, and has been with us as long as they have been Human Beings, and for that matter, animals of all kinds, on the planet. They don’t call it the “mating dance” for nothing, don’t you know.”
Compare and contrast the Womens’ vote totals for GWB (in either election, 2000 or 2004) to Obama’s. Something tells me that the latter won out easily over the former. Coolness is a proxy for Game.
[Chuck: What a great leap. "dance is cool" = "dance gets women" = "votes proxy for get women" thus getting votes = cool. That's one way to look at it. The stupid way. There's that tight Obsidian logic on display again /snark.]
[Chuck: You might have been, but why would we? Rose said that he thought of Duke's blacks as Uncle Toms while he was in college. He held these feelings against Hill in college. If you want to talk NBA we can, but realize that you're detracting from the point. We can talk about it though, just for fun.]
O: Because this is a discussion in part, about pro b-ballers. That’s why.
[Chuck: Not about all pro-ballers. Two in particular. In typical fashion you take the discussion somewhere that it was never meant to be taken.]
O: I have since viewed it. Very interesting stuff.
[Chuck: Thoughts?]
O: I thought it was interesting; just like I thought Ken Burns’ documentary on baseball, interesting.
[Chuck: What a cop out. You wiggle more than a baited worm. Take a stand. Grow a pair.]
[Chuck: Yeah, a call to blindly "get out the vote" which is a partisan move to draw youth and minorities to the polls in order to boost Democrat's numbers. Fine and everything if the kids who were going to vote were doing it from a place of knowledge. If you need Jalen Rose and Russell Simmons to convince you to go vote then you have no reason voting in the first place.]
O: Careful Chuckie, your partisan horns are beginning to show. If you have problems with Rose and Simmons getting out the vote, you have problems with Rove and Luntz getting out the vote, too. Right?
[Chuck: Some of their tactics are sneaky and underhanded and take advantage of the ignorance of the masses, yes. Too many people are allowed to vote in this country, but that's a whole new issue.]
[Chuck: What heat of battle? Rose made the statement on his documentary and he didn't back down from them on ESPN. I'm pointing out that this mentality does more to harm the black community than the empowerment aspects of the Fab Five does to improve the same community. Net losses all the way around.]
O: Your crocodile tears aside, all you’ve “proven” is that Rose speaks for himself, nothing more.
[Chuck: Hill has played in 931 NBA games. AI 914. AI is out of the league. Hill is still playing. Hill has played in 7 All-Star games and is the 50th most popular player among fans at Basketball-reference.com - the most respected sports stats site in the biz. Also, do you have any evidence that Hill's body couldn't hold up *because his body was more ill-prepared for the NBA* rather than the more obvious reason that Hill was unlucky? Until then it would benefit you to not speculate on things you don't know about.]
O: But that’s just it, Chuckie – we don’t have to “speculate” about Hill’s toughness – we know for a fact, that he AIN’T. And that’s my point. Ask anyone out there who actually knows b-ball, and they’ll tell you what I’ve been saying wrt Hill is true.
As for AI, I knew you couldn’t resist the bait. So, let’s compare Hill and Iverson’s NBA career highlights, shall we? We’ll do Iverson first:
[Chuck: Let's not. I wasn't talking about AI. Go talk about him on your blog.]
NBA Most Valuable Player (2001)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1997)
11× NBA All-Star (2000-2010)
4× NBA scoring champion (1999, 2001-2002, 2005)
3× All-NBA First Team (1999, 2001, 2005)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2000, 2002-2003)
All-NBA Third Team (2006)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1997)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2001, 2005)
Allen Iverson at NBA.com
Now Grant Hill:
NBA co-Rookie of the Year (1995)
7× NBA All-Star (1995–1998, 2000–2001, 2005)
All-NBA First Team (1997)
4× All-NBA Second Team (1996, 1998–2000)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1995)
3× NBA Sportsmanship Award (2005, 2008, 2010)
Grant Hill at NBA.com
All stats easily accessible at Wikipedia, there are entires for both players.
Right off the bat we can see that Iverson – who, as you rightly noted, isn’t even playing in the NBA anymore – has been in four more All Star games, than Hill, despite the fact that Hill came into the league eariler than AI. Moreover, AI was voted the league’s MVP, and twice won MVP in All Star games. We can’t say the same for Hill. In addition, AI was the NBA’s scoring champion, *four times* – Hill doesn’t even rate. And finally, AI made the NBA’s First Team, three times, to Hill’s one. On these measures alone, I think the choice is clear as to who was the better player, to say nothing of the toughest, which was my point: NO ONE questioned Allen Iverson’s toughness on the court; EVERYONE questioned Hill’s – which is very important here since we’re doing a point for point comparison of the two, because Iverson’s dimunitive size should have made it hard for him to even be on the bench, much less one of the NBA’s dominant forces; no one has ever made such an argument for Hill, despite the fact that he’s the same height as Lebron and Kobe. Moreover, consider the fact that, at present, there are less than 20 games between AI and Hill, and again this is keeping in mind the fact that AI isn’t playing in the leauge anymore. That’s not something I would crow about if I were Hill or a Hill fan; it doesn’t reflect all that well on the latter, when you think about it.
But, if it means anything to you – and I’m guessing it does – Hill has won the NBA Sportsmanship Award three times. One heck of guy, that Grant Hill is!
O: By that reasoning, MLK is an Uncle Tom, since not only did he come from a long line of black Republicans and more than likely voted that way himself, but he worked very closely with a Dixiecrat in LBJ. You really do need to get out of the sticks more.
[Chuck: You act as if I invented this reasoning.]
O: I wish that were true; but the existence of the HBDsphere itself shows that you are far from alone in the skewed “logic” on display in this post.
[Chuck: Wow. You one-upped an 8.0 shift to one that registers 9 + on the Richter scale. You shift onto Lebron James, who we weren't talking about, and you start talking about something totally unrelated. You really need to work on not doing this.]
O: When you learn to focus, I will follow your example.
[Chuck: If you still think that any of my comments are meant to impugn *all* black people then you're an idiot.]
O: I suppose that makes Terry an idiot as well, given her recent stepping to you and your punking out from said stepping to you, as to the point of your posts regarding Black folk, yes? I directly quote your words, both from your post and in a partial response to me in the comments, and you then punkout and balk. Nice.
[Chuck: Just to be clear, *we* weren't discussing that. You were. I never argued that Hill was the best NBA player of all Time. He's better than Jalen Rose, Juwan Howard, Ray Jackson, and Jimmy King. About on par with Chris Webber. So have at it. YOu'll be talking to yourself. Nothing new I'm sure.]
O: I take all this to mean that the “acting White” nonissue has officially been put to bed then. Alright then, let’s addres yet another strawman by you here – I never argued that Hill was or wasn’t the best b-baller that ever lived. I was addressing how he’s perceived by b-ball fans, which wasn’t the way that Rose perceived him, but rather, that he was soft. That’s. It.
[Chuck: Sweet, you're basing it off something that you wrote. Get real.]
O: So I take this to mean that you never quote yourself, no previous posts, right? Nice way NOT to actually address the point, which is that WOMEN DETERMINE WHO ALPHA MALES ARE, NOT MEN. And Women like Men who can dance. GWB cannot dance. Obama, can dance. We have documented evidence of this in both cases. GWB did not get as much of the Womens’ vote, as Obama did. The end.
[Chuck: Not about all pro-ballers. Two in particular. In typical fashion you take the discussion somewhere that it was never meant to be taken.]
O: OK, so let me get this straight – its perfectly fine for you to take one Man’s comments about another Man, and expand that to an entire sector of American society, but its NOT OK for me to take a discussion about two b-ballers and discuss…wait for it…b-ball? Gotcha.
[Chuck: What a cop out. You wiggle more than a baited worm. Take a stand. Grow a pair.]
O: I’m sorry Chuck, but I just don’t have anywhere near as much of an axe to grind against Black folk as you do. *shrugs*
[Chuck: Some of their tactics are sneaky and underhanded and take advantage of the ignorance of the masses, yes. Too many people are allowed to vote in this country, but that's a whole new issue.]
O: Naw, let’s go there right quick since you brought it up. What do you recommend be done to “rectify” the situation? Bring back the poll tax, perhaps? Institute “poll tests” and the like? What?
As for AI, I knew you couldn’t resist the bait. So, let’s compare Hill and Iverson’s NBA career highlights, shall we? We’ll do Iverson first:
[Chuck: Let's not. I wasn't talking about AI. Go talk about him on your blog.]
O: Yes, let’s; you were the one to begin talking outta the side of your neck citing who’s still playing and who isn’t, number of games played, etc et al. As per usual, when anyone presents actual facts – not some crap off of YouTube – you punk out. Nice!
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Can’ judge me no mo.
Yoo be racis’.
Doesn’t Duke have very high academic standards to get into the school and to stay on the team?
Duke isn’t only about running around on a court in shorts trying to put a ball in a hoop.
Most black athletes simply can’t compete academically to get into Duke. So by some black standards high IQ blacks are uncle toms.
I’m not sure Jalen Rose understands that or wants to admit it.
[Chuck: In one of the clips, Rose discusses the fact that he was an Honor Roll student. He doesn't contextualize it though: he was an Honor student at an inner city Detroit High School.]
Doesn’t Duke have very high academic standards to get into the school and to stay on the team?
They have RELATIVELY high standards, like Notre Dame in football.
But in the end, essentially none of those kids have any right to be there academically. Though they do all graduate, probably in very easy subjects with lots of “help”, still better than the other colleges’ “student-athletes”.
He’s got a chip on his shoulder because his father wasn’t around when he was growing up, it’s pretty common. It isn’t Grant Hill’s fault, he should be angry at his father. I give him credit for being honest.
[Chuck: Why should he get credit for being honest when he is wrong? I never have and never will understand this mentality. I take away his credit for being an idiot. As stupid as Rose is, he's a net debtor.]
I don’t see why he is taking his anger at his own father out on the Duke basketball team. It is seriously misplaced.
He is being ridiculous, but on a personal level my heart goes out to him. On his wikipedia page it said he spoke to his father a few times on the phone, but never met him in real life. It is very sad.
“Almost as bad as all of this nuance and denial is the attitude of the female co-host who reiterates that she appreciates Rose’s and King’s honesty.”
Rush Limbaugh was honest too when he gave his opinion about the sports media’s treatment of black quarterbacks. I don’t recall his honesty being appreciated too much though.
[Chuck: Good point.]
Jason Whitlock has a very good column this topic today.
I went to a predominantly black high school, something around 75-80% black. There was a core group of black kids that were in my AP and honors classes. They only mingled with one another outside of class whereas us white kids could hang out with anyone else (though tribalism meant we mostly hung with other white kids.) I often heard my black classmates referred to as Uncle Toms or deemed to be “acting white” solely because they valued academic achievement.
It didn’t seem to bother them. Now, thanks to Facebook, I see their continued success and can only assume those comments still don’t bother them.
Ulysses:
Good take. But really, the Uncle Tom charge only hurts those kids who aren’t acting out “Uncle Tom” behavior. Acting like an Uncle Tom (at least how it is defined by Rose and many black people in the real world) is nothing to be ashamed of. The kids who are Uncle Toms are already above the fray. It is the kids who haven’t reached above that fray that suffer by being beaten down into a mentality that thinks that studiousness is bad. It is interesting that in the white community “white trash” is about as bad a thing as one white can call another. In white communities it is worse to be called an Uncle Tom. The two pejoratives are perfectly opposite.
Chuck: I agree. It is a sad state of affairs when ignorance is held up as the ideal and deviation from that ideal causes kids to be ostracized. Reminds me of the Chris Rock bit about keeping it real. “Yeah, real dumb.”
@Chuck,
Acting like an Uncle Tom (at least how it is defined by Rose and many black people in the real world) is nothing to be ashamed of.
I talked to my brother in law about this. He bristled at thenotion for a while, and then said anyone who thought he was an uncle tom could kiss his ass.. Of course, his whole family is as integrated as they get; his sister will likely marry a white guy (smart black chicks find it hard to find decent black guys). But he gets hassled on public transit whenever they go into NYC.
Personally, I submit that his biggest problem is he’s obviously very accommodating and beta. You just want to pick on him. But I’m guessing there’d be no brotherly love is some assholes wanted to shake him down in a bad part of town.
OK Chuck, your obsession with finger-wagging at Black folk has reached Theater of the Absurd levels, LOL.
First off, let’s examine the whole “acting White” myth, shall we? I propose the following test:
Barack Obama.
Now, keep in mind – he actually IS “White” – that is to say, that is is technically half-White, as his mom was White. He also attended this country’s most prestigious schools, going all the way to his grade school years. Does America’s Black youth, see HIM, as an “Uncle Tom”? Does Mr. Rose? Do you have any idea who Mr. Rose supported in the 08 presidential elections? [Chuck: What a ridiculous argument. Of course Rose supported Obama, but Obama was running against *John McCain* - an old white man. That sort of changes things.] Are you familiar with what rapper – RAPPER – Common, said about the “Obama Effect”? All of this would seem to strongly undercut your argument. In my personal, lifelong experience as a Black Man, this notion that coming from an intact two parent family (as I did), attending elite schools and speaking the Queen’s English is somehow an “Uncle Tom” indictment, is ridiculous. I have never been accused of any such thing, nor have I seen other Black folk around me accused of any such thing, and let’s keep in mind here – I know, have lived among, have attended school with, etc et al, far and away more Black folk, from all walks of life, than you have. [Chuck: Um, Jalen Rose just uttered the phrase to refer to well-to-do black people. The black commenters I've read on this subject have said that the 'Uncle Tom' charge isn't some unicorn myth. Jason Reid whom I linked to in my piece wrote about how baseball player Milton Bradley called him an Uncle Tom after a clubhouse interview. It seems there are plenty of examples here.]
Moreover, the entire “Uncle Tom” thing is a grievous misnomer, for the character upon which the slur is based was the actual hero of the novel, Uncle Tom’s Cabin. The actual villian of the story was another Black named Sambo – and it is his name that should be used, if any such names are to be used at all.
[Chuck: And don't words change meanings? Don't perceptions about certain words evolve from their original meaning? So what's the point of your history lesson? I know what Uncle Tom *meant*, and I know what it means now. Rose himself defined the word as "a black person who is subservient to whites."]
Thirdly – the reason why Grant Hill isn’t seen in the best possible light by NBA fans, isn’t because he can read or speaks well, but because he simply wasn’t that good a player. For better or for worse, the NBA is a much more physically oriented game than it was even 20 years ago, and Hill’s body simply wasn’t up to the rigors of such an intense style of play.
[Chuck: I won't even get riled up by this argument because it is about the stupidest thing you've ever said. Hill was a better college player with a better college resume than Jalen Rose or any other Fab Five member, and his pro career outshined Jalen Rose and is about on par with Chris Webber. Juwan Howard wasn't shit. Ray Jackson and Jimmy King who?]
You know, you’re really starting to reach now. Give the moralizing to Black folks a rest, hmm?
[Chuck: Jalen Rose made the value judgment by saying that Hill and other Dukies were Uncle Toms. Granted, he said he was jealous, but when pressed on the issue Rose refused to contextualize his comments or say that it is stupid to think that way. So if you want someone to give something a rest, turn to your community and tell them to get over the victimhood and learn how to act like adults.]
O.
Obsidian,
You commit rhetorical suicide in the opening part of your post. You say that the “acting white” charge is a myth, yet we’re talking about a guy in Jalen Rose who calls uppity Negros “Uncle Toms” which is another way of saying that someone is acting white.
Gorby says, among other things, something that I have long suspected, is the REAL bone of contention who are “picked on” with the label of “acting White”:
“Personally, I submit that his biggest problem is he’s obviously very accommodating and beta. You just want to pick on him. But I’m guessing there’d be no brotherly love is some assholes wanted to shake him down in a bad part of town.”
O: And there it is – as I’ve noted elsewhere (“Shii-Cho Game” & Killing The “Brainy Guys Don’t Get Laid” Fallacy http://www.obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/62839/), [Chuck: Nobody read it the first time; nobody's going to read it now] the real issue isn’t that those Black Men (and Im keeping the focus on them since that is who we’re talking about) speak well, come from two parent homes or went to schools alone, that makes them “Uncle Toms”, but rather, it is their utter lack of charisma, “swag” (read: style), “cool”, that does it. They are awkward, geeky, nerdy – and that is a turnoff, especially to Women (here I have to chuckle at Gorby’s comments about the supposed inability of Black Women to find smart Black Men; they could have easily hooked up with these kinds of Black Men, like his BIL, but didn’t. If he reads my post, he will soon understand why, heh heh…). THIS is why, despite Obama’s good upbringing by his WHITE grandparents and attending the best schools the nation has to offer, that he isn’t referred to as an “Uncle Tom” by Blacks, while Ron Christie, on the other hand, is so bothered by the accusation of “acting White” that he wrote an entire book that reads more like a cathartic exposition. I mean, really, we can just look at tape of him and Obama, and compare and contrast.
[Chuck: Yeah Obama is real cool.]
“Acting White” has more to do with intonations, body language, voice inflections and the like, that again, since Gorby mention Women, in this case ostensibly smart Black Women, a TURN-OFF. I suspect that the White guys some of these Sistas wind up with, have in fact, more swag than the Christies of the world – and if Essence and Ebony are any indication, when Sistas have the choice between that (White guy) and Obama, it is pretty clear who they choose. I’m jus’ sayin’.
The problem for many Sistas is the problem for an increasing number of White Women in our time – finding that “sweet spot” that my post discusses in terms of a Man who possesses both bookish smarts AND social smarts AND swag. We who study Game understand very well, that Women have a more complex set of “buttons” that have to be pushed, in comparison to Men along attraction lines. When it comes to the topic at hand, it is completely understandable why Gorby’s BIL would feel some kind of way. Yes, I am saying that a goodly part of the consternation lies in the fact that their “nerdy” Black counterpart didn’t find them all that sexy either. Which explains why the Christies of the world (and to an extent we can include the McWhorter’s as well) tend to marry White; because a White “nerdy” gal’s need for social dominance isn’t as pronounced as a Sista’s of the same cohort, all things being equal, just like an Asian gal’s need for social dominance isn’t as pronounced as a White gal’s. I trust you get my point.
Anyway, I’ve ridden NYC’s MTA, both its trains and buses, all over the city, and have never had a problem. But then I don’t present myself as a Carlton or Urkel, either. That might be Gorby’s BIL’s problem. As he has indicated above.
Hmm.
O.
[Chuck: Gorby's BIL notwithstanding, I think the real problem with the Acting White charge and the Uncle Tom charge isn't how the receivers of those pejoratives feel about them. It's how other black kids who may want to read and write instead of run the streets adapt to the "real black" script that is a mirror image of the kid in the neighborhood or the school whose life is made difficult by the bullying and teasing.]
Hi Chuck,
By now you will have seen my latest comment, which picks up where Gorby left off in his, which referenced his Black BIL, and what I think is really going here when some Blacks like Rose refer to others as “Uncle Toms”. Also, I noticed that you didn’t challenge what I said wrt Obama. He is indeed, part White, literally, and, he went to some of the country’s best, most elite schools. Is he viewed as Blacks, Mr. Rose included, as an “Uncle Tom”, Chuck?
Your response?
O.
[Chuck: I answered above, but I'll state it again. You are making a false equivalency. That false equivalency is based on your premise that Jalen Rose has the same relationship with Grant Hill as he does with Barack Obama. But he doesn't. Jalen Rose had an adversarial dog-eat-dog relationship with Grant Hill. It was competitive in nature, and Hill took away from Rose in many ways. Not only on the basketball court, but Hill made Rose *feel bad about himself*. This wasn't Hill's doing, but Rose took the reaction personally. But Obama is a representative of all black people, in Rose's eyes. Obama lifts all black boats, in Rose's eyes. There is no adversarial relationship with Obama as with Hill. Rose was angry and jealous that Hill devalued Rose to a degree by being up on a certain level. In a resource-constrained world, Hill took more of the pie than Rose could get. That's the thing: Rose was jealous, but we all know that jealousy is detrimental to the holder of it. Not only that, it is wrong. It is wrong to fault a stranger for something that they can't control. Holding on to that mentality debilitates the person who is jealous.]
Hi Chuck,
Replies below:
[Chuck: What a ridiculous argument. Of course Rose supported Obama, but Obama was running against *John McCain* - an old white man. That sort of changes things.]
O: How? If one is “acting White”, is it suddenly mitgated if the person they are running against, is actually White themselves? And if so, how does that effect Colin Powell, since he was being seriously considered for a presidential run in his own right at one time? Are you telling me, that Black folks’ views of him would have changed, because his likely opponent was White and old (as most presidential hopefuls are)? Please explain?
[Chuck: Obama is Democrat. McCain is republican establishment - The Man. Colin Powell is subservient to the Republican machine. Acting white, Uncle Tom, etc, etc.]
[Chuck: Um, Jalen Rose just uttered the phrase to refer to well-to-do black people. The black commenters I've read on this subject have said that the 'Uncle Tom' charge isn't some unicorn myth. Jason Reid whom I linked to in my piece wrote about how baseball player Milton Bradley called him an Uncle Tom after a clubhouse interview. It seems there are plenty of examples here.]
O: Yet no one called Ken Griffey Jr. an “Uncle Tom” that I can recall – and we can say the same for Jimmy Rollins or Ryan Howard, too. Care to hazard a guess why that is?
[Chuck: Within baseball? Probably not. But that's because baseball isn't a black dominated sport. Outside of baseball? Who knows. It's not like athletes walk around using the term Uncle Tom all the time. But when they do it is worth investigating the charge.]
[Chuck: And don't words change meanings? Don't perceptions about certain words evolve from their original meaning? So what's the point of your history lesson?
O: To highlight the fact as to just how ignorant Americans are about their own history, literary or otherwise.
[Chuck: Take it up with Jalen Rose then.]
C: I know what Uncle Tom *meant*, and I know what it means now. Rose himself defined the word as “a black person who is subservient to whites.”]
O: And he, and all who use the term, are wrong. Factually, historically, wrong. Period.
[Chuck: See above.]
[Chuck: I won't even get riled up by this argument because it is about the stupidest thing you've ever said. Hill was a better college player with a better college resume than Jalen Rose or any other Fab Five member, and his pro career outshined Jalen Rose and is about on par with Chris Webber. Juwan Howard wasn't shit. Ray Jackson and Jimmy King who?]
O: That’s OK – ask anyone who actually knows b-ball to assess Hill’s actual NBA career, and see what they tell you.
[Chuck: How bout you tell me, O. Let's see what you know. Hill started out well, but was hampered by injury. He's turned in to a handy player in his late 30s. Overall, he's not a HOFer, but he's better than Jalen Rose ever was.]
[Chuck: Jalen Rose made the value judgment by saying that Hill and other Dukies were Uncle Toms. Granted, he said he was jealous, but when pressed on the issue Rose refused to contextualize his comments or say that it is stupid to think that way. So if you want someone to give something a rest, turn to your community and tell them to get over the victimhood and learn how to act like adults.]
O: See my parting shots below.
[Chuck: Nobody read it the first time; nobody's going to read it now]
O: False – according to my blog’s site stats, said post in question was published on Mar 3, 2011; on that day, it garnered exactly 829 unique views. Moreover, your blog, GL Piggy, is the third highest referrer to my blog, with 273 unique visitors in the past 30 days. You were saying?
[Chuck: So you've proven that people who read my blog don't click the link to your blog? Does that say something about my blog or about your blog? Think about it.]
[Chuck: Yeah Obama is real cool.]
O: That’s the best you got – Obama riding a bike?!? Come on, Chuck. By that standard, lance Armstrong would be considered “uncool” too, yet I don’t recall anyone deeming him as such. Whew…
[Chuck: He looked like a fucking nerd. Obama is a nerd. He's not cool. Bush was cooler than him. Obama walks all hunkered down to the ground, wears bike helmets and has his shirt tucked in to high rise jeans while wearning white shoes. Come on.]
[Chuck: Gorby's BIL notwithstanding, I think the real problem with the Acting White charge and the Uncle Tom charge isn't how the receivers of those pejoratives feel about them. It's how other black kids who may want to read and write instead of run the streets adapt to the "real black" script that is a mirror image of the kid in the neighborhood or the school whose life is made difficult by the bullying and teasing.]
O: If that was true, I would have ended up on those same streets, and I didn’t. Of course, my own personal testimony doesn’t count. Gotcha.
[Chuck: I answered above, but I'll state it again. You are making a false equivalency. That false equivalency is based on your premise that Jalen Rose has the same relationship with Grant Hill as he does with Barack Obama. But he doesn't.
O: Actually, you're right - Rose has MORE of a direct relationship with Grant, than he does with Obama, and if anyone ought to know what kind of player Hill is (or better put, isn't), it's Rose. Again: Hill is whacked because he's a whacked player, NOT because he read good).
[Chuck: Hill beat Rose in college which is when Rose supposedly harbored these feelings against Duke and Hill. So, while Hill was never whacked by absolute standards in the NBA, he certainly wasn't whack in college. Hill was top of the game in college.]
c: Jalen Rose had an adversarial dog-eat-dog relationship with Grant Hill. It was competitive in nature, and Hill took away from Rose in many ways.
O: I think the stats and overall career records beg to differ…
C: Not only on the basketball court, but Hill made Rose *feel bad about himself*.
O: How so? Did Rose specifically lay all this out, and if so, where?
[Chuck: See the documentary where Rose said that he was jealous of Grant Hill.]
C: This wasn’t Hill’s doing, but Rose took the reaction personally.
O: See above requests for information.
C: But Obama is a representative of all black people, in Rose’s eyes. Obama lifts all black boats, in Rose’s eyes.
O: First, do you know for certain that Rose backed Obama? And if so, doesn’t his very person – Obama I mean now – undercut the entire premise of the “acting White” argument? Given Obama’s personal story? Please explain?
[Chuck: Yes, he did. I wrote about Rose a while back. He supports Russell Simmons' Hip Hop Action Network.]
C: There is no adversarial relationship with Obama as with Hill. Rose was angry and jealous that Hill devalued Rose to a degree by being up on a certain level. In a resource-constrained world, Hill took more of the pie than Rose could get. That’s the thing: Rose was jealous, but we all know that jealousy is detrimental to the holder of it. Not only that, it is wrong. It is wrong to fault a stranger for something that they can’t control. Holding on to that mentality debilitates the person who is jealous.]
O: But that’s not how you constructed this entire post, Chuck – you weren’t arguing that Rose merely had a set of personal problems; as you always do, you took one Man’s trash talking comments in the heat of battle and attempted to make an overarching commentary about Blacks as a whole, something I have repeatedly chided you for. Hence why I have introduced the Obama Effect per Common’s words. You have yet to actually refute the claims.
As per usual.
O.
Chuck,
Yes, he is totally wrong, although he didn’t even try to hide the fact that he is jealous of Grant Hill because he came from a great black family which is what I meant by him being honest. Jalen needs to grow up and realize that he has been given many gifts also, mainly athletic ability well beyond the norm. Even if his father wasn’t part of his life he did get his athletic ability from him. Jalen needs to get a sense of perspective and look at what some other people have been through in life. He is acting like a 5 year old.
Stop saying “Theatre of the Absurd”.
Theater of The Absurd.
O.
You spelled it wrong, and you clearly don’t understand what it means. But keep saying it if you think it makes you sound smart.
I looked up Theatre of the Absurd on wikipedia and this was part of the definition: “dialogue full of clichés, wordplay, and nonsense; plots that are cyclical or absurdly expansive; either a parody or dismissal of realism” If that doesn’t describe Obsidian’s comments I don’t know what does.
@Obs and Chuck,
[Chuck: Gorby's BIL notwithstanding, I think the real problem with the Acting White charge and the Uncle Tom charge isn't how the receivers of those pejoratives feel about them. It's how other black kids who may want to read and write instead of run the streets adapt to the "real black" script that is a mirror image of the kid in the neighborhood or the school whose life is made difficult by the bullying and teasing.]
Actually, my BIL is still obviously black: he has *some* swagger. He also dresses very well, takes care of himself, doesn’t smoke/get drunk, at least as long as I’ve known him hasn’t used drugs (soft or hard). He has no problem with cops (though he’s been pulled over for DWB several times, given the neighborhood he lives in).
What he *did* experience in highschool was harrassment from other black kids when he wasn’t obviously stupid; when he got good grades; and his sister got it much harder. His grades were always excellent. But he said that the black kids were unrelenting.
He told me once that he dated a lot in college, before he met my sister; in a nod to Obs, the black chicks expected him to be a lot more Gangsta than he was (that was his word, btw). He used to complain about it.
That said, the (few) other black guys on campus were of two types: Sports jocks, there on scholarships for hoops or whatever, and smart black guys, who had academic and social skills. There were almost none of those at his college. His MBA had more, likely because they collected such guys from all over the country.
He himself thinks that Black Male Culture is deeply anti-intellectual and riffs on anyone who strays from the Stupid Black Man stereotype.
So a bit for Obs (women like the Bad Boy Black Guy meme) and a bit for Chuck and me (Black men shoot each other down if they step out of line).
He says his parents always pushed him to excel – unremittingly. Very Asian of them. His sister is also very highly accomplished, and isn’t the least bit interested in black men, largely because she hates the “stupid black man” image, and most of the black men she knows fit the profile.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that, um, maybe, given these purely anecdotal notes and the evidence from the rest of the culture, that Black American culture is, by and large, powerfully anti-intellectual.
Which means that the common scene in movies of the black nerd or techie (the computer hacker, etc.) as the token black guy is pure PC bullshit.
There’s a limit to the amount I can push my BIL for personal anecdotes on this sort of stuff. I’m getting pretty close to that limit.
I don’t think race realists should focus on Acting White because this plays into the “it’s all culture” narrative.
Sure I think the anti-white culture of the black community should be criticized and the “acting white” meme is an aspect of it, but attributing too much importance to it plays right into the liberal creationist’s hands. Further, it’s not a phenomenon exclusive to blacks as there are analogous (though racially neutral) concepts amongst whites and even Asians.
One of my first posts was on this subject:
http://onestdv.blogspot.com/2009/06/emotional-basis-of-acting-white.html
Doc G,
You said: “You spelled it wrong, and you clearly don’t understand what it means. But keep saying it if you think it makes you sound smart.”
O: No, I didn’t; I used the American spelling. Which is perfectly acceptable.
[Chuck: Actually "theatre" is the artform or the metaphysical idea of the art of stage. "Theater" is the actual space where the artform is practiced.]
Did anyone tell you that you excel in the Ad Hominem attack?
O.
@OneSTDV,
Nice piece. I buy the argument to some degree, obviously. But I think smart black kids genuinely feel like they’re betraying their culture by not fitting in. I admit, the fat chick-stupid student rejection of the norm might be going on with lots of these black kids, but that doesn’t explain the smart kids who reject “acting white” (success), either. Some of them do.
I think you’re right, of course, on one level, but the depressive culture extends out and grabs smart kids, too.
This happens with white kids, but with white kids, there’s no cultural barrier to joining other white groups. Black kids have to step across an obvious barrier, and must then face acceptance by the white kids; this might provide added pressure to play stupid and act “black”.
I may be getting defensive on this score – my BIL is as bright as any white guy, and he’s not exactly a statistical anomaly. Rare, yes. He admits that himself. His parents are inordinately proud of him, but he says black kids he went to school with basically wrote him off when he wasn’t
– into rap
– got good grades
– got very respectable SATs
BTW, Beta though he is, apparently, he was scoring pretty hard with the Sistas in college – there were literally *no* black men for the having.
A white sistah nabbed him and made him work for it.
Shit, my sister can be such a cunt. We had dinner over the weekend. I steered the talk, but that woman just loves to poke every open wound. Seriously, I feel sorry for this guy. You’d think he was a domestic servant.
Jump for me! Jump for me!
I feel bad for humans with penises whenever I’m around her.
For Lara, from Wikipedia:
“The Theatre of the Absurd (French: Théâtre de l’Absurde) is a designation for plays of absurdist fiction, written by a number of playwrights from the late 1940s to the 1960s, as well as the theatre which has evolved from their work. It expressed the belief that, in a godless universe, human existence has no meaning or purpose and therefore all communication breaks down. Logical construction and argument gives way to irrational and illogical speech and to its ultimate conclusion, silence.[1]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theatre_of_the_Absurd
I think I used the term properly enough, given the nature of the discussion, but just in case you missed it, here’s the money quote:
“C: There is no adversarial relationship with Obama as with Hill. Rose was angry and jealous that Hill devalued Rose to a degree by being up on a certain level. In a resource-constrained world, Hill took more of the pie than Rose could get. That’s the thing: Rose was jealous, but we all know that jealousy is detrimental to the holder of it. Not only that, it is wrong. It is wrong to fault a stranger for something that they can’t control. Holding on to that mentality debilitates the person who is jealous.]
O: But that’s not how you constructed this entire post, Chuck – you weren’t arguing that Rose merely had a set of personal problems; as you always do, you took one Man’s trash talking comments in the heat of battle and attempted to make an overarching commentary about Blacks as a whole, something I have repeatedly chided you for. Hence why I have introduced the Obama Effect per Common’s words. You have yet to actually refute the claims.
As per usual.”
Like I said, Chuck’s ongoing diatribes along these and related lines, are indeed, a Theater of The Absurd.
Holla back
O.
Gorby,
Did you see what I said to Chuck above, wrt Obama and Black people? If the argument about being an “Uncle Tom” is true, wouldn’t it have applied itself there, and if not, why?
[Chuck: Obama is blacker than any other Democrat in the field of mainstream candidates. He's the black choice by default. Colin Powell is Uncle Tom because he's a Republican and thus a pawn of the white man. I don't know the extent to which Obama interacted with black Americans outside the academic realm, but I'd be curious to hear his experiences with the Uncle Tom or the Acting white charge.]
As for your BIL, based on what you’ve described of him, I am not at all convinced that he was a Big Man on campus amongst the Sistahood. Usually guys like that get the hand – theirs.
[Chuck: It never amazes me how much of a hater you are Obsidian. You're *always* hating.]
Where did he go to school?
Also, have you read my post that I linked to? I know of what I speak, because I am living proof. You gotta have swag, you can’t be a geek; I called it “Sexy Smart” – and that’s what a lot of guys, regardless of color, DON’T have. When it comes to Black guys, they convert this into the whole enormous “acting White” stuff. Rubbish.
Holla back
O.
SDTV is right. Talking about “acting white” is something you hear quite a few race liberals say. I’ll have to check out his article on the subject, but is it any surprise black people are going to act “black”. They are black. Jalen’s absentee father is not unusual at all for the black community.
White people that try to act “black” are often ridiculed for it.
Lara,
Obama’s father wasn’t in his life either; is he an Uncle Tom though? Per OneSTDV’s article (which I read) the answer is “no” – yet, he has a heck of a lot more in common with Grant Hill than Jalen Rose, when you really stop to think about it.
Sidney Poitier isn’t considered an “Uncle Tom” by Black folk; neither is Quincy Jones. I mean, this whole line of (un)reasoning on the part of Chuck is really laughable in its logicl incoherency.
I hope you were able to follow all of that.
O.
[Chuck: Grant Hill is a hell of a lot cooler than President Obama. Hill went to Duke and likely wasn't as studious as Obama in college. Hill didn't look like a nerd even though Obama certainly did. Hill was playing ball while Obama was studying nuclear proliferation and Saul Alinsky. So in absolute terms Grant Hill was not "acting white". Yet it is Jalen Rose who thought of Grant Hill as an Uncle Tom while not all that many black youth think of Barack Obama as one because of what he represents to them.]
Ms. Often-Wrong Lara said:
“White people that try to act “black” are often ridiculed for it.”
O: False – Lisa Stanfield, Teena Marie, Eminem, Robin Thicke, Michael Bolton, are all just a few of the many, many examples of White people who “act Black” and are LOVED by Black folks. Perhaps what you meant to say, is that such people are ridiculed by Whites?
Think real hard now before you answer…
O.
Obs,
the post that you linked to isn’t, for a comparative example, as fun or easy or clearly understandable as OneSTDV’s post. You might want to reference him for clarity. His style is excellent.
I think a lot of black guys who would otherwise be “geeky” put on the airs of “being black” and then basically drop out of success, because this is the oppressive ant-intellectual culture, if you want to know what I think.
And my BIL may not be a Swaggering Jock, but he’s immensely charming and is always the talkative center of any group. He laughs easily, loudly, and has a good sense of humor (which for men means something, less so for chicks).
I can easily see how he’d be a hit with many of the ladies. He’s also not bad-looking (and he produced some attractive daughters; one, when older, will be a soul-crushing heart-breaker, I guarantee it, as she’s got Little Princess stamped on her forehead in ink already).
This is no Romeo, but when my sister says he was a dog before he met her, I can partly believe it. I understand one black girl still keeps tabs on him. My sister alluded to this last year, in a “Bitches gonna steal my man” kind-of way. Anyway, the few times we’ve been out w/o my sister or their kids, he’s gotten a bit of attention.
Somerville (near Boston) is near where he works. I met up with him for drinks last summer. The bastard got the hot waitress’ number – I had the impression she’d have done him in the restroom is he’d been up to it. So he’s not a loser with the chicks, by any means. Of course, he’s also not Magic Johnson. He’s got this subtle non-geeky charm.
But the self-effacing attitude has to be a turn-off.
So I’d go with: His family had him in a nearly all-white environment; they were supportive; and he never tried to “act black”, which he himself says.
A good job, a solid education and two cute kids with a conservative-background white chick (PC Nazi Lib though she may be) means the dude’s pretty fucking successful. His sister, if she can ever find a man (and I’m not convinced she wants one), will be the same.
His extended family is a mixed bag, but he’s got relatives out west in CA that are pretty borderline. The Pittsburgh family is more or less okay, some Airport management types and whatnot, does anyone there *not* work for the airport?, and one cousin is apparently a cop in DC or Virginia – not sure.
But at least I don’t hear about the failures in the family. Likely, neither does he.
I’ve noticed that blacks who move on up try to put as much distance between them and the ghetto garbage that passes for human life on the ground floor.
From what I can see, that’s a very, very good idea.
That said, I’m going to put my money on young black kids with moxy and brains having to act “black” (ie, “loser”) in order to be accepted into the group.
Next time he has his own family function, I’ll get me and my girl invited and see what impressions I can’t pry loose.
Hi Gorby,
Replies below:
G: Obs,
the post that you linked to isn’t, for a comparative example, as fun or easy or clearly understandable as OneSTDV’s post. You might want to reference him for clarity. His style is excellent.
O: Hmm; well, given the source of where this unsolicited critique is coming from, I hardly think you are in a position to opine on the clarity or brevity of anyone’s writing, with all due respect, Gorby; second, upwards of 20 comments were left on said post, virtually all of them praising the writing, so that leaves you clearly in the minority opinion; thirdly, it is too bad One’s formidable writing talents aren’t bent towards actual and achievable goals for his readers, and finally, I notice that you didn’t actually respond to what I actually said.
Interesting.
G: I think a lot of black guys who would otherwise be “geeky” put on the airs of “being black” and then basically drop out of success, because this is the oppressive ant-intellectual culture, if you want to know what I think.
O: I didn’t, but since you told me anyway, I have to ask – on what basis do you say any of this? Especially in light of the points I made in my post and here on this one?
G: And my BIL may not be a Swaggering Jock, but he’s immensely charming and is always the talkative center of any group. He laughs easily, loudly, and has a good sense of humor (which for men means something, less so for chicks).
O: False. One of the defining traits of an Alpha Male is that they have a sense of humor and that they smile quite a bit. Moreover, no one said anything about your BIL or anyone else having to be a “swaggering jock” in order to find success with the ladies. And that includes Black ones.
G: I can easily see how he’d be a hit with many of the ladies. He’s also not bad-looking (and he produced some attractive daughters; one, when older, will be a soul-crushing heart-breaker, I guarantee it, as she’s got Little Princess stamped on her forehead in ink already).
O: YOU may be able to see it but the question is, how did his fellow Sista collegemates see it?
G: This is no Romeo, but when my sister says he was a dog before he met her, I can partly believe it. I understand one black girl still keeps tabs on him. My sister alluded to this last year, in a “Bitches gonna steal my man” kind-of way. Anyway, the few times we’ve been out w/o my sister or their kids, he’s gotten a bit of attention.
O: Always take anything a Woman says with a grain of salt. Another standard operating Game procedure.
G: Somerville (near Boston) is near where he works. I met up with him for drinks last summer. The bastard got the hot waitress’ number – I had the impression she’d have done him in the restroom is he’d been up to it. So he’s not a loser with the chicks, by any means. Of course, he’s also not Magic Johnson. He’s got this subtle non-geeky charm.
O: That’s just it though, Gorby – many geeky guys, HAVE NO CHARM. Please go back and take the time to actually read what I said in my post. It lays it all out right there. Get over your preconceived notions and your ideology, and read the dang article.
G: But the self-effacing attitude has to be a turn-off.
O: It is indeed, if it is too much and over the top; DLV in extremis.
G: So I’d go with: His family had him in a nearly all-white environment; they were supportive; and he never tried to “act black”, which he himself says.
O: What does that mean? Please explain? Does Barack Obama “act White”?
G: A good job, a solid education and two cute kids with a conservative-background white chick (PC Nazi Lib though she may be) means the dude’s pretty fucking successful. His sister, if she can ever find a man (and I’m not convinced she wants one), will be the same.
O: *shrugs* I personally many such Black Men and have all my life. No big whup.
G: His extended family is a mixed bag, but he’s got relatives out west in CA that are pretty borderline. The Pittsburgh family is more or less okay, some Airport management types and whatnot, does anyone there *not* work for the airport?, and one cousin is apparently a cop in DC or Virginia – not sure.
O: OK.
G: But at least I don’t hear about the failures in the family. Likely, neither does he.
O: OK – I think…?
G: I’ve noticed that blacks who move on up try to put as much distance between them and the ghetto garbage that passes for human life on the ground floor.
O: That’s about right – the same as White folks who have White Trash relatives try to put as much social and geographical distance between themselves and them as much as possible.
G: From what I can see, that’s a very, very good idea.
O: Monkey see, monkey do.
G: That said, I’m going to put my money on young black kids with moxy and brains having to act “black” (ie, “loser”) in order to be accepted into the group.
O: Again: was Obama “acting Black” when he was in Columbia and/or Harvard? Was he “acting Black” when he was in Chitown? Please explain?
G: Next time he has his own family function, I’ll get me and my girl invited and see what impressions I can’t pry loose.
O: You need to expand your circle of Black people if you’re going to spend so very much of your time writing about them/us. relying on one Black guy for your source of info is like my relying on you to tell me what more than 200 million White Americans are like…
SMH…
O.
Oh fuck, did Chuck put up this post just to have 1000 comments, 850 of them being Obsidian restating his opponent’s arguments as strawmen and lgoing off on absurd, unrelated tangents?
Jalen Rose is a white-hating, racist, overrated prick who dislikes intelligence and paid for his own biography (this documentary) to try to puff up his lack of accomplishment and overratedness in college and the pros.
Unleash the Obsidian Krakken!
@OBS,
e post that you linked to isn’t, for a comparative example, as fun or easy or clearly understandable as OneSTDV’s post. You might want to reference him for clarity. His style is excellent.
O: Hmm; well, given the source of where this unsolicited critique is coming from, I hardly think you are in a position to opine on the clarity or brevity of anyone’s writing, with all due respect, Gorby;
Hey, it takes a spewer of shit to recognize one. Just because I spew doesn’t mean I want to read spewers.
OneSTDV is still a heckuva lot easier to read than you. And me. But I don’t blog.
[Chuck: I'll rank them One, then Gorby, then O. One follows a logical pattern while Gorby's writing is filled with relatable anecdotes and snappy points. Neither can be said of Obsidian's writing which honestly just wears me out only because it is so tedious. Honestly, Obsidian, your arguments are hard to follow - not because they're so brilliant but because you aren't structuring them well. It's about delivery. Maybe work on that if you want to "out hit" me by August or whatever.]
second, upwards of 20 comments were left on said post, virtually all of them praising the writing, so that leaves you clearly in the minority opinion; thirdly, it is too bad One’s formidable writing talents aren’t bent towards actual and achievable goals for his readers, and finally, I notice that you didn’t actually respond to what I actually said.
I didn’t because there’s not much point.
BTW, this is my issue:
You do line-by-line responses. I suggest this works to hide what you intend to say and mean. Anyway, it’s VERY hard to respond to. Eyes weary just looking at this line-by-line thing.
[Chuck: Ditto, though I'll admit to being sucked in by this style of argumentation, it leaves a lot to be desired. It devolves into a shit show of whitty quips and digs. Of course, this benefits my game over Obsidian's, but many larger points are lost.]
You would get *much* more favorable responses if you just stopped using this format. I guarantee you every reader will agree, bar none.
Just compose some paragraphs on-point, and leave the line-by-line. You add nothing and take away a fair bit with that method.
@Obs,
G: I think a lot of black guys who would otherwise be “geeky” put on the airs of “being black” and then basically drop out of success, because this is the oppressive ant-intellectual culture, if you want to know what I think.
O: I didn’t, but since you told me anyway, I have to ask – on what basis do you say any of this? Especially in light of the points I made in my post and here on this one?</I.
Good book by my favorite Black dude, McWhorter: "Losing the Race". Go read it, in its entirety.
Also, comments from people I know, none of whom are ghetto.
G: And my BIL may not be a Swaggering Jock, but he’s immensely charming and is always the talkative center of any group. He laughs easily, loudly, and has a good sense of humor (which for men means something, less so for chicks).
O: False. One of the defining traits of an Alpha Male is that they have a sense of humor and that they smile quite a bit. Moreover, no one said anything about your BIL or anyone else having to be a “swaggering jock” in order to find success with the ladies. And that includes Black ones.
A lot of black ladies want asshole-jock tough guys, from what I hear. It’s very Manly.
So I guess my BIL has some alpha traits, then. His Manginaness with my sister must be something else.
G: I can easily see how he’d be a hit with many of the ladies. He’s also not bad-looking (and he produced some attractive daughters; one, when older, will be a soul-crushing heart-breaker, I guarantee it, as she’s got Little Princess stamped on her forehead in ink already).
O: YOU may be able to see it but the question is, how did his fellow Sista collegemates see it?
According to my sister, he was, … easily distracted in college. She was his second long-term GF, but the guy was definitely not celibate. I got the impression he got around a bit.
That said, her reference point is me, and while she doesn’t know the half of it, she assumed I’m a jerkwad cad who slums it with whores. You can tell my sister and I get along.
G: This is no Romeo, but when my sister says he was a dog before he met her, I can partly believe it. I understand one black girl still keeps tabs on him. My sister alluded to this last year, in a “Bitches gonna steal my man” kind-of way. Anyway, the few times we’ve been out w/o my sister or their kids, he’s gotten a bit of attention.
O: Always take anything a Woman says with a grain of salt. Another standard operating Game procedure.
Nah, I can see him getting some ass if wants it. Well, before he got two kids and a desk job, anyway.
G: Somerville (near Boston) is near where he works. I met up with him for drinks last summer. The bastard got the hot waitress’ number – I had the impression she’d have done him in the restroom is he’d been up to it. So he’s not a loser with the chicks, by any means. Of course, he’s also not Magic Johnson. He’s got this subtle non-geeky charm.
O: That’s just it though, Gorby – many geeky guys, HAVE NO CHARM. Please go back and take the time to actually read what I said in my post. It lays it all out right there. Get over your preconceived notions and your ideology, and read the dang article.
He has charm. He just has no bad-boy swagger.
Everyone thinks he’s mondo charming.
G: But the self-effacing attitude has to be a turn-off.
O: It is indeed, if it is too much and over the top; DLV in extremis.
It’s only with his wife. My sister can be a serious cunt.
G: So I’d go with: His family had him in a nearly all-white environment; they were supportive; and he never tried to “act black”, which he himself says.
O: What does that mean? Please explain? Does Barack Obama “act White”?
Yes. Definitely. If he weren’t President, he’d be considered a bit of a sellout. I’ve heard blacks say this – “Anyway, he be white.” There was lots of criticism of him not really being black.
G: A good job, a solid education and two cute kids with a conservative-background white chick (PC Nazi Lib though she may be) means the dude’s pretty fucking successful. His sister, if she can ever find a man (and I’m not convinced she wants one), will be the same.
O: *shrugs* I personally many such Black Men and have all my life. No big whup.
I know. There are lots of these. I keep making this point. What’s yours?
G: I’ve noticed that blacks who move on up try to put as much distance between them and the ghetto garbage that passes for human life on the ground floor.
O: That’s about right – the same as White folks who have White Trash relatives try to put as much social and geographical distance between themselves and them as much as possible.
Not the case. I know lots of white families who associate closely with their trashier or less successful relatives.
Not me. I have nothing but contempt for white prole culture. It humiliates me. No one calls me out for not acting white.
G: That said, I’m going to put my money on young black kids with moxy and brains having to act “black” (ie, “loser”) in order to be accepted into the group.
O: Again: was Obama “acting Black” when he was in Columbia and/or Harvard? Was he “acting Black” when he was in Chitown? Please explain?
A lot of talk was like this:
He does something we don’t like: He’s a sellout.
He does something we like: He’s black.
G: Next time he has his own family function, I’ll get me and my girl invited and see what impressions I can’t pry loose.
O: You need to expand your circle of Black people if you’re going to spend so very much of your time writing about them/us. relying on one Black guy for your source of info is like my relying on you to tell me what more than 200 million White Americans are like…
Should I go hang out at the local crack house, or what?
Gorbachev: Should I go hang out at the local crack house, or what?
Oh, snap!
Hi Gorby,
Replies below:
G: Hey, it takes a spewer of shit to recognize one. Just because I spew doesn’t mean I want to read spewers.
O: If that’s the case you shouldn’t be spending your time in the HBDsphere.
G: OneSTDV is still a heckuva lot easier to read than you. And me. But I don’t blog.
O: That’s not saying much, given that One has a penchant for hyperbole and purple prose in the extreme – to say nothing of boring to tears repetitiveness with his “everybody’s picking on me!” refrains…
G: I didn’t because there’s not much point.
O: Translation – I didn’t because it doesn’t fit the script. There, fixed that for ya.
G: BTW, this is my issue:
O: You wouldn’t be Gorby if you didn’t have at least one…
G: You do line-by-line responses. I suggest this works to hide what you intend to say and mean. Anyway, it’s VERY hard to respond to. Eyes weary just looking at this line-by-line thing.
O: It is designed to be very precise; this way, nothing is lost in translation. There can be no misinterpretation, because everyone can see exactly what was said and more importantly, in what context it was said.
G: You would get *much* more favorable responses if you just stopped using this format. I guarantee you every reader will agree, bar none.
G: Just compose some paragraphs on-point, and leave the line-by-line. You add nothing and take away a fair bit with that method.
O: So sayeth the self-professed shit-spewer. Gotcha.
O: What is up with White guys and their nauseatingly bad habit of giving unsolicited advice? Sheesh!
G: Good book by my favorite Black dude, McWhorter: “Losing the Race”. Go read it, in its entirety.
O: I know McWhorter very well; he’s from my hometown and we lived in another; I would pass by his home quite often. Perhaps you are familiar with his other works?
G: Also, comments from people I know, none of whom are ghetto.
O: For shame.
G: A lot of black ladies want asshole-jock tough guys, from what I hear. It’s very Manly.
O: How many Black Women do you actually know, in order to know what they actually want? I’ll wait.
G: So I guess my BIL has some alpha traits, then. His Manginaness with my sister must be something else.
O: I suppose being pussy-whipped knows no color.
G: According to my sister, he was, … easily distracted in college. She was his second long-term GF, but the guy was definitely not celibate. I got the impression he got around a bit.
O: Looks can be deceiving…
G: That said, her reference point is me, and while she doesn’t know the half of it, she assumed I’m a jerkwad cad who slums it with whores. You can tell my sister and I get along.
O: TMI
G: Nah, I can see him getting some ass if wants it. Well, before he got two kids and a desk job, anyway.
O: His homelife says otherwise…
G: He has charm. He just has no bad-boy swagger.
O: You don’t need to be a “bad boy” in order to have swag. You’d know that if you read the article.
G: Everyone thinks he’s mondo charming.
O: Everyone but his wife, your sister – the – and I’m using your words now – “cunt”.
G: It’s only with his wife. My sister can be a serious cunt.
O: Which proves his utter lack of Game. It is in the home that it counts the most.
G: Yes. Definitely. If he weren’t President, he’d be considered a bit of a sellout. I’ve heard blacks say this – “Anyway, he be white.” There was lots of criticism of him not really being black.
O: I am quite confident that I know more Black folk than you, and I have yet to hear anyone of them say that they thought that President (then Senator) Obama was an “Uncle Tom”. None. Moreover, his vote totals speak for itself – if he was indeed such a “sellout” another of the Democratic hopefuls, most like Hilary Clinton, would have gotten the Black Vote. You were saying?
G: I know.
O: No, evidently you don’t.
G: There are lots of these.
O: Indeed they are.
G: I keep making this point.
O: Actually, much of your time is spent talking, or should I say ranting, about the Black underclass. Obsessions run deep, hmm?
G: What’s yours?
O: See above.
G: Not the case. I know lots of white families who associate closely with their trashier or less successful relatives.
O: I hate to be the bearer of bad news Gorby, BUT YOU DON’T SPEAK FOR ALL WHITE PEOPLE.
G: Not me.
O: That’s right – not YOU. Keep the “analysis” there.
G: A lot of talk was like this:
He does something we don’t like: He’s a sellout.
O: “Something” like what, Gorby? Do tell?
G: He does something we like: He’s black
O: That’s confirmed by the vote totals.
G: Should I go hang out at the local crack house, or what?
O: I ddin’t know they had those in lily White New England…
O.
Anonymous Asshat says:
“Oh fuck, did Chuck put up this post just to have 1000 comments, 850 of them being Obsidian restating his opponent’s arguments as strawmen and lgoing off on absurd, unrelated tangents?”
O: Hyperbole anyone?
“Jalen Rose is a white-hating, racist, overrated prick who dislikes intelligence and paid for his own biography (this documentary) to try to puff up his lack of accomplishment and overratedness in college and the pros.”
O: Only in America – ain’t it grand?
“Unleash the Obsidian Krakken!”
O: After AA closes his sphincter of a mouth…
O.
[Chuck: I'll rank them One, then Gorby, then O.
O: Thank you.
C: One follows a logical pattern while Gorby's writing is filled with relatable anecdotes and snappy points.
O: OneSTDV is "logical"? I would say something in response to that but I want to remain civil and nice...
[Chuck: His arguments follow tightly one from the other. Unlike yours.]
C: Neither can be said of Obsidian’s writing which honestly just wears me out only because it is so tedious.
O: Translation – there aren’t any links to YouTube videos…
[Chuck: Nah, I'll settle for flow and cogency. I'd also accept a avoidance of those flaccid attempts at humor and the schticky sign-off phrases that weren't, aren't, and never will be humorous to anyone but yourself.]
C: Honestly, Obsidian, your arguments are hard to follow – not because they’re so brilliant but because you aren’t structuring them well. It’s about delivery.
O: Translation – my ADHD goes off everytime I try to sitdown to read what you write…
[Chuck: Funny, I don't have that affliction. That you bring out similar symptoms in me and other readers speaks badly of you.]
C: Maybe work on that if you want to “out hit” me by August or whatever.]
O: LOL. They say when people begin to attack you instead of your points you can be sure that you have won the argument. And as for my “out hitting” you, let’s be clear – I was discussing as it related specifically to Game posts. I am confident I will reach my goal.
[Chuck: There's a point when you've eradicated a person's points to the extent that you can only attack their fanciful notions that they haven't been beaten. That may look like ad hom, but it isn't. and you can have the Game post contest. I don't really write that much about Game anyway.]
[Chuck: Ditto, though I'll admit to being sucked in by this style of argumentation, it leaves a lot to be desired.
O: What can I say; it's contagious!
C: It devolves into a shit show of whitty quips and digs. Of course, this benefits my game over Obsidian's, but many larger points are lost.]
O: The “larger points” are lost the moment you begin to type in a YouTube-filled reverie…
O.
@Obsidian
O: If that’s the case you shouldn’t be spending your time in the HBDsphere.
I was tryng to help you out. It’s your style of response that gets me : line-by-line stuff.
Try composing in paragraphs. Really. That’s got nothing to do with content.
Believe me, everyone will agree with me.
O: That’s not saying much, given that One has a penchant for hyperbole and purple prose in the extreme – to say nothing of boring to tears repetitiveness with his “everybody’s picking on me!” refrains…
I mean, write in paragraphs and bunch comments and ideas together. This line-by line thing is very 1987 and it’s hard to read.
G: BTW, this is my issue:
O: You wouldn’t be Gorby if you didn’t have at least one…
Dude, I have so many. Don’t undersell me.
O: It is designed to be very precise; this way, nothing is lost in translation.
It’s the opposite in functional reality. It’s not precise. It’s obscurant. Really, it is.
There can be no misinterpretation, because everyone can see exactly what was said and more importantly, in what context it was said.
But in fact, you’ve been able to consistently take much of what I write – which comes in clusters and bunches – out of context. There were whole debates on your blog where stuff was continuously taken out of context. I’m not the only one who noticed, either.
The method obscures. Get others to vote on it. Ask them.
G: Just compose some paragraphs on-point, and leave the line-by-line. You add nothing and take away a fair bit with that method.
O: So sayeth the self-professed shit-spewer. Gotcha.
Don’t take my word for it. Ask others.
O: What is up with White guys and their nauseatingly bad habit of giving unsolicited advice? Sheesh!
One of many nauseating characteristics I sport.
G: Good book by my favorite Black dude, McWhorter: “Losing the Race”. Go read it, in its entirety.
O: I know McWhorter very well; he’s from my hometown and we lived in another; I would pass by his home quite often. Perhaps you are familiar with his other works?
All of them. Love them. Excellent linguist. Great theory on the use of auxiliary verbs (adopted from Welsh).
Didn’t comment on his book. His thesis: Black American culture is relentlessly anti-intellectual and actually despises intellectual activity.
Many agree.
G: Also, comments from people I know, none of whom are ghetto.
O: For shame.
You’re right. I’ll go hang out on street corners and chat up the local tough guys next time I’m in NYC.
O: How many Black Women do you actually know, in order to know what they actually want? I’ll wait.
Chicks I work with. Two I dated. Two other black chicks weren’t American, so they don’t count. My BIL’s sister, and her entourage. Women at work (lots in all media jobs I’ve ever had), all educated but the ones hired for being pretty. My neighbor’s wife (They’re 50+; he’s white; both second marriages).
O: I suppose being pussy-whipped knows no color.
*THIS* we agree on. Ring the bells and go home, kids.
G: Nah, I can see him getting some ass if wants it. Well, before he got two kids and a desk job, anyway.
O: His homelife says otherwise…
My sister is (was) hot enough and she’s white. His homelife notwithstanding, he wasn’t alpha (per se), but clearly had some alpha qualities, if a sense of humor and charm are alpha.
G: Everyone thinks he’s mondo charming.
O: Everyone but his wife, your sister – the – and I’m using your words now – “cunt”.
Oh, she thinks he’s charming. She’s just a cunt. She needs to be put in her place from time to time. He won’t do it. Too “nice”. His mom always demanded her sons be “nice”.
G: It’s only with his wife. My sister can be a serious cunt.
O: Which proves his utter lack of Game. It is in the home that it counts the most.
Even bad boys fuck up at home. Men always do. That’s not color-dependent.
O: I am quite confident that I know more Black folk than you, and I have yet to hear anyone of them say that they thought that President (then Senator) Obama was an “Uncle Tom”. None. Moreover, his vote totals speak for itself – if he was indeed such a “sellout” another of the Democratic hopefuls, most like Hilary Clinton, would have gotten the Black Vote. You were saying?
I’m no voting expert. But I’ll say it:
If a monkey trained to throw bananas had gotten up on a stage, but was black, black people would have voted for it. The fact that he speaks well and is clever is just a bonus. We all know that.
O: Actually, much of your time is spent talking, or should I say ranting, about the Black underclass. Obsessions run deep, hmm?
The black underclass is so outrageously catastrophically horrible it bears singling out. It’s America’s biggest social disaster. It’s a national failing on a monumental scale. It’s an urban blight. It’s multi-generational. It seems intractable.
No white poverty is even nearly as bad. No white underclass anywhere is as bad as this. it’s so embarrassing, the American black underclass makes places like South Africa look good.
G: Should I go hang out at the local crack house, or what?
O: I ddin’t know they had those in lily White New England…
I’m sure there are some brothas here that could oblige me.
Hi Chuck,
Replies below:
[Chuck: Obama is Democrat. McCain is republican establishment - The Man. Colin Powell is subservient to the Republican machine. Acting white, Uncle Tom, etc, etc.]
O: OK, so lemme get this straight – You can be an “Uncle Tom” Black Man-as-political-candidate, ONLY if you’re a Republican – right? Even though, if you’re on the Democratic side, and you’re half White, and you attend the country’s most elite schools, you’re NOT an “Uncle Tom”? Do I have that right?
[Chuck: Blacks consider any black who is perceived to be working with The Man to be an Uncle Tom. Usually The Man is associated with the conservative Republicans.]
[Chuck: Within baseball? Probably not.
O: Thank you.
[Chuck: Within a predominantly white and Hispanic sport, Ken Griffey's competitors - having already abrogated "real blackness" by participating in baseball - wouldn't have much room to call him an Uncle Tom.]
[Chuck: Take it up with Jalen Rose then.]
O: Nice dodge, but no cigar.
[Chuck: See above.]
O: I did; see my reply above.
[Chuck: How bout you tell me, O. Let's see what you know. Hill started out well, but was hampered by injury. He's turned in to a handy player in his late 30s. Overall, he's not a HOFer, but he's better than Jalen Rose ever was.]
O: Alright, if you insist – ask anyone who knows basketball well this simple question: Lebron, or Grant Hill?
[Chuck: Why would I do that? Lebron James didn't call Grant Hill an Uncle Tom. Jalen Rose did. Interesting that you *massively* shift the goal posts on this one.]
The. End.
[Chuck: So you've proven that people who read my blog don't click the link to your blog? Does that say something about my blog or about your blog? Think about it.]
O: I have. It means that you are wrong when “nobody’s gonna read what I write”. I have proven that statement by you to be fallacious. Think about it.
[Chuck: He looked like a fucking nerd. Obama is a nerd. He's not cool. Bush was cooler than him. Obama walks all hunkered down to the ground, wears bike helmets and has his shirt tucked in to high rise jeans while wearning white shoes. Come on.]
O: You gotta be kidding me; GWB is like every other White guy save Robin Thicke, Hugh Jackman and that Riverdance guy, he can’t keep a beat if his life depended on it. A guy who dances like he’s Rain Man, IS NOT COOL. Now compare and contrast to Obama’s appearance on the Ellen Degeneres show…
[Chuck: And why are you basing coolness on the ability to dance? I'd rather compare baseball throwing form. Obama throws like a bitch. GWB, not. Dancing is a greater beta/lesser alpha thing. Men can attain a certain status by being able to dance, but at some point dancing for men detracts from coolness or alphaness.]
[Chuck: Hill beat Rose in college which is when Rose supposedly harbored these feelings against Duke and Hill. So, while Hill was never whacked by absolute standards in the NBA, he certainly wasn't whack in college. Hill was top of the game in college.]
O: I thought we were talking about Hill’s NBA record?
[Chuck: You might have been, but why would we? Rose said that he thought of Duke's blacks as Uncle Toms while he was in college. He held these feelings against Hill in college. If you want to talk NBA we can, but realize that you're detracting from the point. We can talk about it though, just for fun.]
[Chuck: See the documentary where Rose said that he was jealous of Grant Hill.]
O: I have since viewed it. Very interesting stuff.
[Chuck: Thoughts?]
[Chuck: Yes, he did. I wrote about Rose a while back. He supports Russell Simmons' Hip Hop Action Network.]
O: Yes, I vaguely recall you foaming at the mouth about someone Black or other, and the name “Jalen Rose” being in the subject line…
[Chuck: Yeah, a call to blindly "get out the vote" which is a partisan move to draw youth and minorities to the polls in order to boost Democrat's numbers. Fine and everything if the kids who were going to vote were doing it from a place of knowledge. If you need Jalen Rose and Russell Simmons to convince you to go vote then you have no reason voting in the first place.]
You forgot to respond to the following:
“But that’s not how you constructed this entire post, Chuck – you weren’t arguing that Rose merely had a set of personal problems; as you always do, you took one Man’s trash talking comments in the heat of battle and attempted to make an overarching commentary about Blacks as a whole, something I have repeatedly chided you for. Hence why I have introduced the Obama Effect per Common’s words. You have yet to actually refute the claims.”
[Chuck: What heat of battle? Rose made the statement on his documentary and he didn't back down from them on ESPN. I'm pointing out that this mentality does more to harm the black community than the empowerment aspects of the Fab Five does to improve the same community. Net losses all the way around.]
Your comments?
O.
Now to return to the point about Hill and how he is viewed as a player by fans:
The point is, that Hill’s sytle of play, having come from the Duke system, is in many ways ill-suited to the modern day NBA, where the game is not only much faster paced, but it is also HIGHLY physical; Hill’s body simply could not withstand the rigors of play at that level, and faced several potentially career ending injuries at the height of his career. There have been fundamentally tougher Men at his height and position, as well as others, from Shaq and down to AI. Fact.
[Chuck: Hill has played in 931 NBA games. AI 914. AI is out of the league. Hill is still playing. Hill has played in 7 All-Star games and is the 50th most popular player among fans at Basketball-reference.com - the most respected sports stats site in the biz. Also, do you have any evidence that Hill's body couldn't hold up *because his body was more ill-prepared for the NBA* rather than the more obvious reason that Hill was unlucky? Until then it would benefit you to not speculate on things you don't know about.]
Hill is regarded as not all that because his body ain’t all that, and that matters in today’s league. Compare him to other players at his height and position, like Kobe, or Lebron, and and ask folks who know b-ball well who they think is a better player overall, and see what they tell you. Heck, point guards like Dwayne Wade and Jason Kidd are far and away better, on both ends of the floor, and they’re shorter AND play fundamentally different positions. See if anyone actually disagrees with what I said here.
[Chuck: Those players are better than Hill. But we weren't talking about them. They're also even further and away better than Jalen Rose or the other four of the Fab Five. And you want to talk about Duke's game? You have Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Chris Duhon, Corey Maggette. They've all fared well in the NBA after coming from the Duke style of play.]
It has nothing to do with his family background or being a “Buppie” or an “Uncle Tom” or anything like that. Hill was and is seen as being soft in comparison to the aforementioned players, because simply put, he ain’t really built like that to compete at a truly high level.
[Chuck: Again, Jalen Rose called him an Uncle Tom and it had nothing to do with Hill's NBA career since the sentiment was held before Hill and Rose made the NBA. And Rose himself comments that he thought Hill was an Uncle Tom because he was jealous of Hill and thought that Hill's differnce implied that he wasn't "really" black.]
I’m jus’ sayin’.
O.
Hi Chuck,
Replies below:
[Chuck: Obama is blacker than any other Democrat in the field of mainstream candidates. He's the black choice by default.
O: That would explain why, for example, Michael Steele - a homegrown, Black Man - lost to a White candidate for the US Senate, in a state with a considerable Black population - right?
C: Colin Powell is Uncle Tom because he's a Republican and thus a pawn of the white man.
O: Whew! And you have the nerve to call *my* logic distorted?!? [Chuck: Do I really have to tell you that these are not my sentiments but the thinking of blacks who throw the term Uncle Tom around?]
C: I don’t know the extent to which Obama interacted with black Americans outside the academic realm, but I’d be curious to hear his experiences with the Uncle Tom or the Acting white charge.]
O: What, you mean, you haven’t read his autobiography? And, trust me, if he was being called an “Uncle Tom” we’d all know about it by now.
“As for your BIL, based on what you’ve described of him, I am not at all convinced that he was a Big Man on campus amongst the Sistahood. Usually guys like that get the hand – theirs.”
[Chuck: It never amazes me how much of a hater you are Obsidian. You're *always* hating.]
O: LOL. Actually Chuck, this comes from the Sistas I know who actually went to university. They told me they treated guys like Gorby’s BIL and Ron Christie like a stop sign. Go figure. *shrugs*
[Chuck: And you've met Gorby's BIL? You know about Ron Christie's personal dating history? Further, you assume that those men were trying to mack the same types of girls you know?]
[Chuck: Grant Hill is a hell of a lot cooler than President Obama.
O: That's debatable; what isn't is that Hill is most certainly soft.
C: Hill went to Duke and likely wasn't as studious as Obama in college. Hill didn't look like a nerd even though Obama certainly did.
O: Uh, did you know that Obama ran ball while in highschool, and one of his highschool photos clearly features him in a "player" type suit and an afro hairstyle? Or did you miss all that?
[Chuck: And that makes him cool automatically? People are allowed to play make believe one day a year.]
C: Hill was playing ball while Obama was studying nuclear proliferation and Saul Alinsky. So in absolute terms Grant Hill was not “acting white”.
O: As I’ve said, I know no one, save Jalen Rose, who has accused of Hill as “acting White”. No one.
[Chuck: But we're talking about Jalen Rose and Grant Hill. Nobody else. Have you ever heard one black insinuate that another black person was an Uncle Tom?]
C: Yet it is Jalen Rose who thought of Grant Hill as an Uncle Tom while not all that many black youth think of Barack Obama as one because of what he represents to them.]
O: Funny that, ain’t it?
O.
Duke discriminates against “people” who choke inThe Big Game.Duke also discriminates against “people”who would rather look good than play good.
Also,there’s been alot of truth thrown at Obsidian over the last two years,yet noone has EVER referred to him as the rather obvious “Obsi(m)ian.” Why is this?Has whitey just gone and got lazy?
Uncle Tom as a derogatory label was invented by black activists that absolutely knew the content of the novel.
The character Tom was a non-threatening black created by whites. A black man that white society could approve of, hence the model of what not to be. The Uncle Tom slur isn’t some accident of history, where the true meaning of the term was forgotten. It was completely intentional.
Good morning Chuck,
Lots to respond to here, so let’s get right to it:
[Chuck: His arguments follow tightly one from the other. Unlike yours.]
O: Really, now? Care to put that to the test?
[Chuck: Nah, I'll settle for flow and cogency. I'd also accept a(n) avoidance of those flaccid attempts at humor and the schticky sign-off phrases that weren't, aren't, and never will be humorous to anyone but yourself.]
O: I should hope not; they were never meant to be humorous. As for cogency, I think this post, among a great many by you, shows your understanding of the word leaves a heck of a lot to be desired…
[Chuck: Funny, I don't have that affliction. That you bring out similar symptoms in me and other readers speaks badly of you.]
O: Nah, that’s just the consternation on you and your ilk’s part that I would deign to challenge the ridiculously racist drivel you write on the regular, is all.
[Chuck: There's a point when you've eradicated a person's points to the extent that you can only attack their fanciful notions that they haven't been beaten. That may look like ad hom, but it isn't.
O: That you do the latter so very well and the former so piss-poorly, indeed conveys a powerful message about you.
C: and you can have the Game post contest. I don't really write that much about Game anyway.]
O: In this, you and OneSTDV have a heck of a lot in common. As do much of the (virtually all White) Manosphere…
[Chuck: Blacks consider any black who is perceived to be working with The Man to be an Uncle Tom. Usually The Man is associated with the conservative Republicans.]
O: By that reasoning, MLK is an Uncle Tom, since not only did he come from a long line of black Republicans and more than likely voted that way himself, but he worked very closely with a Dixiecrat in LBJ. You really do need to get out of the sticks more.
[Chuck: You act as if I invented this reasoning.]
[Chuck: Within a predominantly white and Hispanic sport, Ken Griffey's competitors - having already abrogated "real blackness" by participating in baseball - wouldn't have much room to call him an Uncle Tom.]
O: Uh huh. Blacks’ historical participation in baseball is without question, and even today isn’t insignificant. I maintain my previous point.
[Chuck: Why would I do that? Lebron James didn't call Grant Hill an Uncle Tom. Jalen Rose did. Interesting that you *massively* shift the goal posts on this one.]
O: The “massive shifting of goalposts” began when you said the following:
[Chuck: Wow. You one-upped an 8.0 shift to one that registers 9 + on the Richter scale. You shift onto Lebron James, who we weren't talking about, and you start talking about something totally unrelated. You really need to work on not doing this.]
“That is a much less important issue than the attitude that Rose’s unchecked, unqualified, and unrepentant comment fosters in black youth today – that being an aspirational black person diminishes that person’s blackness. It is that attitude that hurts the 10,000 black youth who aren’t good enough at basketball to be the next Jalen Rose…This is “Keep it Real” and “Can’t Judge Me” culture which forms a thick exoskeleton around the moral sensibilities of black youth in this country.”
You then followed these statements in your post with the following comment in response to me:
“So if you want someone to give something a rest, turn to your community and tell them to get over the victimhood and learn how to act like adults.”
The point you are making here is clear, though deeply, deeply misguided: you are saying that Rose’s views with regard to Hill are EMBLEMATIC OF BLACK PEOPLE AS A WHOLE, and that is where I call BULLSHIT on your crap. It is completely cool to take Rose singularly to task for comments he made about a singular individual, Grant Hill. But for you to attempt to craft an overarching argument on an entire group of people, numbering some 40 million people, it really strains credulity.
[Chuck: If you still think that any of my comments are meant to impugn *all* black people then you're an idiot.]
As the following Wikipedia link shows, the whole “Acting White” urban mythology, is far from a settled matter and accepted fact of life; indeed, if anything, the election of Barack Obama, seems to utterly discredit the entire premise of the argument (which I said earlier and which you stubbornly refused to directly address, hmm): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white
Anyway, I was speaking to Hill’s NBA performance and how he stacks up against other players of similar height and position.
[Chuck: Just to be clear, *we* weren't discussing that. You were. I never argued that Hill was the best NBA player of all Time. He's better than Jalen Rose, Juwan Howard, Ray Jackson, and Jimmy King. About on par with Chris Webber. So have at it. YOu'll be talking to yourself. Nothing new I'm sure.]
[Chuck: And why are you basing coolness on the ability to dance? I'd rather compare baseball throwing form. Obama throws like a bitch. GWB, not. Dancing is a greater beta/lesser alpha thing. Men can attain a certain status by being able to dance, but at some point dancing for men detracts from coolness or alphaness.]
O: Why am I basing this in part on one’s ability to dance? That’s easy: You Should Be Dancing: Tony Manero & “Ataru Game” http://www.obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/62661/
[Chuck: Sweet, you're basing it off something that you wrote. Get real.]
Money quote: “…a Man who has moves on the dancefloor instantly has a decided advantage over other guys when it comes to upping his notch count. There’s simply no getting around that fact. Dancing is one of a number of proxies Women use to gauge a Man’s sexual prowess, and has been with us as long as they have been Human Beings, and for that matter, animals of all kinds, on the planet. They don’t call it the “mating dance” for nothing, don’t you know.”
Compare and contrast the Womens’ vote totals for GWB (in either election, 2000 or 2004) to Obama’s. Something tells me that the latter won out easily over the former. Coolness is a proxy for Game.
[Chuck: What a great leap. "dance is cool" = "dance gets women" = "votes proxy for get women" thus getting votes = cool. That's one way to look at it. The stupid way. There's that tight Obsidian logic on display again /snark.]
[Chuck: You might have been, but why would we? Rose said that he thought of Duke's blacks as Uncle Toms while he was in college. He held these feelings against Hill in college. If you want to talk NBA we can, but realize that you're detracting from the point. We can talk about it though, just for fun.]
O: Because this is a discussion in part, about pro b-ballers. That’s why.
[Chuck: Not about all pro-ballers. Two in particular. In typical fashion you take the discussion somewhere that it was never meant to be taken.]
O: I have since viewed it. Very interesting stuff.
[Chuck: Thoughts?]
O: I thought it was interesting; just like I thought Ken Burns’ documentary on baseball, interesting.
[Chuck: What a cop out. You wiggle more than a baited worm. Take a stand. Grow a pair.]
[Chuck: Yeah, a call to blindly "get out the vote" which is a partisan move to draw youth and minorities to the polls in order to boost Democrat's numbers. Fine and everything if the kids who were going to vote were doing it from a place of knowledge. If you need Jalen Rose and Russell Simmons to convince you to go vote then you have no reason voting in the first place.]
O: Careful Chuckie, your partisan horns are beginning to show. If you have problems with Rose and Simmons getting out the vote, you have problems with Rove and Luntz getting out the vote, too. Right?
[Chuck: Some of their tactics are sneaky and underhanded and take advantage of the ignorance of the masses, yes. Too many people are allowed to vote in this country, but that's a whole new issue.]
[Chuck: What heat of battle? Rose made the statement on his documentary and he didn't back down from them on ESPN. I'm pointing out that this mentality does more to harm the black community than the empowerment aspects of the Fab Five does to improve the same community. Net losses all the way around.]
O: Your crocodile tears aside, all you’ve “proven” is that Rose speaks for himself, nothing more.
[Chuck: Hill has played in 931 NBA games. AI 914. AI is out of the league. Hill is still playing. Hill has played in 7 All-Star games and is the 50th most popular player among fans at Basketball-reference.com - the most respected sports stats site in the biz. Also, do you have any evidence that Hill's body couldn't hold up *because his body was more ill-prepared for the NBA* rather than the more obvious reason that Hill was unlucky? Until then it would benefit you to not speculate on things you don't know about.]
O: But that’s just it, Chuckie – we don’t have to “speculate” about Hill’s toughness – we know for a fact, that he AIN’T. And that’s my point. Ask anyone out there who actually knows b-ball, and they’ll tell you what I’ve been saying wrt Hill is true.
As for AI, I knew you couldn’t resist the bait. So, let’s compare Hill and Iverson’s NBA career highlights, shall we? We’ll do Iverson first:
[Chuck: Let's not. I wasn't talking about AI. Go talk about him on your blog.]
NBA Most Valuable Player (2001)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1997)
11× NBA All-Star (2000-2010)
4× NBA scoring champion (1999, 2001-2002, 2005)
3× All-NBA First Team (1999, 2001, 2005)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2000, 2002-2003)
All-NBA Third Team (2006)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1997)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2001, 2005)
Allen Iverson at NBA.com
Now Grant Hill:
NBA co-Rookie of the Year (1995)
7× NBA All-Star (1995–1998, 2000–2001, 2005)
All-NBA First Team (1997)
4× All-NBA Second Team (1996, 1998–2000)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1995)
3× NBA Sportsmanship Award (2005, 2008, 2010)
Grant Hill at NBA.com
All stats easily accessible at Wikipedia, there are entires for both players.
Right off the bat we can see that Iverson – who, as you rightly noted, isn’t even playing in the NBA anymore – has been in four more All Star games, than Hill, despite the fact that Hill came into the league eariler than AI. Moreover, AI was voted the league’s MVP, and twice won MVP in All Star games. We can’t say the same for Hill. In addition, AI was the NBA’s scoring champion, *four times* – Hill doesn’t even rate. And finally, AI made the NBA’s First Team, three times, to Hill’s one. On these measures alone, I think the choice is clear as to who was the better player, to say nothing of the toughest, which was my point: NO ONE questioned Allen Iverson’s toughness on the court; EVERYONE questioned Hill’s – which is very important here since we’re doing a point for point comparison of the two, because Iverson’s dimunitive size should have made it hard for him to even be on the bench, much less one of the NBA’s dominant forces; no one has ever made such an argument for Hill, despite the fact that he’s the same height as Lebron and Kobe. Moreover, consider the fact that, at present, there are less than 20 games between AI and Hill, and again this is keeping in mind the fact that AI isn’t playing in the leauge anymore. That’s not something I would crow about if I were Hill or a Hill fan; it doesn’t reflect all that well on the latter, when you think about it.
But, if it means anything to you – and I’m guessing it does – Hill has won the NBA Sportsmanship Award three times. One heck of guy, that Grant Hill is!
More in a minute…
O.
Man, its true: black liberals will defend anything a black liberal says.
http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/grant-hills-response-to-jalen-rose/?ref=todayspaper
Hi Chuc,
Replies below:
O: By that reasoning, MLK is an Uncle Tom, since not only did he come from a long line of black Republicans and more than likely voted that way himself, but he worked very closely with a Dixiecrat in LBJ. You really do need to get out of the sticks more.
[Chuck: You act as if I invented this reasoning.]
O: I wish that were true; but the existence of the HBDsphere itself shows that you are far from alone in the skewed “logic” on display in this post.
[Chuck: Wow. You one-upped an 8.0 shift to one that registers 9 + on the Richter scale. You shift onto Lebron James, who we weren't talking about, and you start talking about something totally unrelated. You really need to work on not doing this.]
O: When you learn to focus, I will follow your example.
[Chuck: If you still think that any of my comments are meant to impugn *all* black people then you're an idiot.]
O: I suppose that makes Terry an idiot as well, given her recent stepping to you and your punking out from said stepping to you, as to the point of your posts regarding Black folk, yes? I directly quote your words, both from your post and in a partial response to me in the comments, and you then punkout and balk. Nice.
[Chuck: Just to be clear, *we* weren't discussing that. You were. I never argued that Hill was the best NBA player of all Time. He's better than Jalen Rose, Juwan Howard, Ray Jackson, and Jimmy King. About on par with Chris Webber. So have at it. YOu'll be talking to yourself. Nothing new I'm sure.]
O: I take all this to mean that the “acting White” nonissue has officially been put to bed then. Alright then, let’s addres yet another strawman by you here – I never argued that Hill was or wasn’t the best b-baller that ever lived. I was addressing how he’s perceived by b-ball fans, which wasn’t the way that Rose perceived him, but rather, that he was soft. That’s. It.
[Chuck: Sweet, you're basing it off something that you wrote. Get real.]
O: So I take this to mean that you never quote yourself, no previous posts, right? Nice way NOT to actually address the point, which is that WOMEN DETERMINE WHO ALPHA MALES ARE, NOT MEN. And Women like Men who can dance. GWB cannot dance. Obama, can dance. We have documented evidence of this in both cases. GWB did not get as much of the Womens’ vote, as Obama did. The end.
[Chuck: Not about all pro-ballers. Two in particular. In typical fashion you take the discussion somewhere that it was never meant to be taken.]
O: OK, so let me get this straight – its perfectly fine for you to take one Man’s comments about another Man, and expand that to an entire sector of American society, but its NOT OK for me to take a discussion about two b-ballers and discuss…wait for it…b-ball? Gotcha.
[Chuck: What a cop out. You wiggle more than a baited worm. Take a stand. Grow a pair.]
O: I’m sorry Chuck, but I just don’t have anywhere near as much of an axe to grind against Black folk as you do. *shrugs*
[Chuck: Some of their tactics are sneaky and underhanded and take advantage of the ignorance of the masses, yes. Too many people are allowed to vote in this country, but that's a whole new issue.]
O: Naw, let’s go there right quick since you brought it up. What do you recommend be done to “rectify” the situation? Bring back the poll tax, perhaps? Institute “poll tests” and the like? What?
As for AI, I knew you couldn’t resist the bait. So, let’s compare Hill and Iverson’s NBA career highlights, shall we? We’ll do Iverson first:
[Chuck: Let's not. I wasn't talking about AI. Go talk about him on your blog.]
O: Yes, let’s; you were the one to begin talking outta the side of your neck citing who’s still playing and who isn’t, number of games played, etc et al. As per usual, when anyone presents actual facts – not some crap off of YouTube – you punk out. Nice!
More in a minute…
O.
jz 03/17/2011 at 12:11 pm
http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/grant-hills-response-to-jalen-rose/?ref=todayspaper
Grant Hill bitch slapped Rose pretty good there.
Funny ending.
Obsidian 03/17/2011 at 1:12 pm
Hi Chuc,
Replies below:
….More in a minute…
O.
Nobody cares, you’re a bore.
Hi Rockhead,
I beg to differ:
Addressing The Jalen Rose/Grant Hill Tempest In A Teapot Nonissue…
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/63543
O.
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