Kicking. Squealing.
This, from commenter Nick Digger in response to my quip that White Nationalists/white supremacists/anti-Semites are “stupid”. Those who disagree with my use of the word “stupid” here assume that I care to put much effort in coming up with a better word to describe these people. Would “misguided” work? Anyway, digger writes:
There is nothing stupid about disliking something; it is merely a question of taste. To call someone “stupid” for hating, e.g., brussel sprouts, is itself an act of stupidity. Sure, brussel sprouts contain some good vitamins and minerals, but those elements can be acquired from other vegetables, or in pill form. Some people are willing to suffer the bad taste and sulphuric afterfarts, in order to enjoy the nutrients; others are not; neither side is “stupid” for making their choice.
This seems like a poor analogy. As I wrote in comments, if you started up a website to protest brussel sprouts and if you woke up every morning fuming about how much brussel sprouts have harmed the world, then, yes, I think you are, in a word, “stupid”. I’d hasten to add that if you get worked up if your brussel sprouts touched your mashed potatoes then I’d suggest that you should look inward to figure out exactly what you are quick to anger at such trivial things.
Chuck any group that’s not part of the ruling collation of this nation is going to be poor at expressing itself due to the nature of smart people generally flocking to power. That doesn’t mean they’re not correct. Smart people often make the worst leaders and it’s smart white guys who are responsible for most of the mess we are in. Evidence and reality should always be a stronger guide than a well spoken sophist argument.
Here’s a question for you that goes to the heart of white nationalism: Are non elite white people second class citizens in America?
Being a white supremacist is pretty unattractive. It’s just painting a big bulls eye on your back. It’s characterized by racial hatred and absolutism about any degree of race mixing, even with say NE Asians.
White nationalism of the Jared Tayor, American Renaissance variety isn’t stupid at all. It’s basically just asserting white interests as such just as blacks lobby for their interest and Hispanics sometimes do for theirs. That and a desire to keep this a primarily white nation. Lord knows the Japanese want to Japan and overwhelmingly Japanese nation.
White nationalists of the “blacks can have one part of the country and whites another” are pretty stupid and unattractive though, as are those that want a return to 1950s style southern segregation.
Well, everyone has a different brussel sprout.
The NRA likes the gun brussel sprout. Liberarians love the free market brussel sprout. The anti-mercury filling people have their brussel sprout issue. So do the cross fitters, the cyclists, and so on.
In the end, whoever has the most power and money has their brussel sprout declared a legitmate concern. Then you may pass brussel sprout laws, with brussel sprout advocates and experts.
Most White Nationalists have Negro IQ’s.
Doug: The problem with that is when you look at WNs even of the Jared Taylor variety they’re still more extreme than the average Japanese person. Heck, even more extreme than most conservative LDP members. Yes, the majority of Japanese citizens support the current tough immigration standards, yes, they think of Japan as an ethnically Japanese nation. But they are nowhere near as strict or particularist as even AmRen WNs are.
For example, the half-Japanese offspring of a citizen and a non-citizen born in country is still considered Japanese. Granted, they may face some societal prejudice, but they aren’t non-citizens or second-class citizens. In fact, they are over-represented among the entertainment and sports industry there. Moreover, most of those born and raised in Japan consider themselves fully Japanese in self-affiliation, and that is not disputed. As a contrast, take a look at how much crap Derb gets from even AmRen WNs about marrying a Chinese woman.
The rules for becoming a naturalized Japanese citizen are fairly tough, basically long term residency, a clean legal slate (which is actually somewhat difficult considering the amount of legal residency paperwork you have to keep up, it easy to let one or two of the minor ones lapse) and mastery of the Japanese language (in which the test they give you and expect you to pass requires you to actually be more kanji literate than the average Japanese person). That said, once you get the citizenship, you’re a legal citizen. Not everyone will recognize it, but one guy who has issued legal challenges every time that has happened has won each one (Debito Arudou, whom actually most naturalized Japanese Westerners dislike as being a provocateur). Even as difficult as it is, sometimes it’s fast-tracked as in the case of foreign Sumo stars, or that Russian software tycoon.
Man, you opened up a whole can o’ worms, bro. All the types you listed as “stupid” are p. much disparaged at every turn and completely intellectually ghettoized. That ain’t too bad when you talking ’bout real crazies who get off to racial eradication, but a lot of these types started as moderate real realists, got shit on from all over, and went to the only types that would take them in. ‘specially the “anti-semites”. I mean, people call you one of those if you bring up otherwise innocuous things like how it might be a bad idea to have a secretary of defense be a dual-citizen, or the disproportionate representation of jews in certain fields.
Point is, tread a bit more carefully, and don’t decry “labels” but just propositions.
i.e.
Don’t say: “Anti-semites are dumb”
Say: “Accepting the idea of jewish eradication is pretty homicidal”
Less mess with qualification, nahmean? Just tryin’ to help you avoid turmoil, chaos, upheaval, and ***DRAMA*** in your corner of the blorgensphere.
Race realism is quite a different thing than white nationalism. I have a low opinion of both the behavior and economic productivity of blacks, but have no problem with Asians, Muslims who behave, and can tolerate those Hispanics who work hard.
But I have no illusions about how I, as an Eastern European Mediterranean American, would have been looked down upon by WASPs until recently.
Most White Nationalists have Negro IQ’s.
That is becoming apparent, isn’t it?
White Nationalists are silly in the same sense that Marxists are silly.
A Marxist likes to talk about the evils of capitalism, expecting people to get defensive, so the Marxists can feel like they’re going against the grain, fighting the status quo, emancipating sheeple, etc etc. But if we accept the Marxist’s premises for the sake of argument, the entire dialogue goes off track. For when the Marxist is asked to spell out how our glorious socialist future is going to look like and how we can achieve it, the conversation devolves back into a rant about the evils of capitalism.
White nationalists feel special when others challenge their premises on discrimination law, on affirmative action, on immigration, on cultural pride, and so forth. But if such premises are accepted, the White Nationalist has nowhere to take the conversation. They have no vision for what the future Promised Land of Whitetopia looks like, nor do they have realistic plans how to achieve it. Rather, they run their mouths back into despair-porn mode about the evils of non-whites.
What would change current demographic trends? Here’s a grotesque proposal guaranteed to work: whites could as a group engage in terrorism directly against non-whites. In other words, ethnic cleansing. If this sounds immoral or mean, think about this. Chicago is a city with around 3,000,000 people — 37% of them are black, and 26% are Hispanic. What are the white nationalists going to do, ask them politely to move to another country in the name of white purity? Ha! So even assuming everything the white nationalists say is true, they’re unwilling to put in the violent actions to realize their own goals. They’re posers that thankfully deep down do not believe their own stupid bullshit.
Much of this discussion is academic. Guys inadvertently flaunting either their “above it all” cred or their “ass kicking” cred. And then there is Chuck, who is my favorite blogger, but not one of the two indispensable writers alive — who I think got needlessly unnerved by Gorbachev’s overheated recent comment.
Ethnocentrism is normal, natural, and good. Efforts to negate it by force make us all ugly, damaged hypocrites. As Kant said, “Out of the crooked timber of humanity no straight thing was ever made.” Communism was an effort to unnaturally bend man’s nature. America’s global export known as multiracialism is another such war against humanity.
Every white person under the sun is a white nationalist, in what they practice if not preach.
PA, who are the two?
Good comment, PA. There are degrees of White nationalism and ethnocentrism. For those of one type to consider themselves superior to the others is self-defeating. Given Whites’ soon-to-be status of minorities in the US (currently non-hispanic Whites are about 59% if official statistics are to be believed), it behooves the tiny minority of Whites who are actually aware of and concerned about their precarious status to support one another. This sniping about who is more or less racist or violent or anti-semitic strikes me as unnecesary at best. Chuck’s moral preening is no better or worse than Ryu’s belief that might alone makes right.
Why are you comparing a White Nationalist to an average Japanese person? Wouldn’t the comparison be to a Japanese Nationalist; a hard-line right-winger? Your entire post is obfuscation. You want to pick nits with Doug’s analogy, not even bothering to note the differences that political affiliations would take in a country with Japan’s political compared to the US.
There are indeed Japanese just as extreme as Alex Linder, or even more so Jared Taylor in Japan, and they aren’t marginalized kooks, because the mainstream is actually already relatively close to Nationalism. Israel is another good analogy where ultranationalists are part of the public discourse, while the country as a whole is firmly right of center.
So yeah, Jared Taylor is more extreme than your average Japanese person, or even your average Israeli maybe. He’s about on par with Avigdor Lieberman though, or any Uyoku Dantai politician or spokesman, which are more public, accepted, and active than Taylor or any non-Republican right-winger in America. Of course you fail to draw any parallels between the average Japanese person’s politics and what is politically acceptable for an average person in the US. The average Japanese person’s equivalent among whites in the US is still racist and evil, and their politics would be verboten by the standards of the Republican Party. They are de facto WNs (less extreme than their ostensible ‘leaders’ perhaps, but they are still far-right kooks; the politics of the average Japanese person are already effectively banished from the public square in the US.)
Here is what Japan is actually like:
Ok, try imaging the equivalent in a major American city, with near daily Klan car rallies, literally advocating returning blacks to slavery from the loudspeakers mounted on top of their hate-vans; while members of this same organization are actually sitting members of Congress. As anyone can see the situation in Japan is very different than how Spike wants to portray it.
I think most WNs would be happy if America was run a lot more like Japan, with similar demographics in mind. I’m sure we’d be willing to accept a Russian tycoon (or I guess an approximation in America might be a Japanese tycoon) here or there, and I don’t think many would begrudge Derbyshire his Chinese wife if it weren’t totally verboten (and in some countries literally illegal) to begrudge Derbyshire his Chinese wife. Or if miscegenation, the act of ensuring that future generations are less white, wasn’t automatically seen as some high-minded moral good, and whiteness in general as evil. Clearly there is a reason for the reaction, and when the circumstances and context change, people, even those kooky white nationalists, will adapt accordingly.
Kyle: I lived in Japan, speak and read the language, so I may have enough knowledge to talk down to you and other idiots who run their mouths off. When you can read the Yomiuri Shimbun in the original and give me a synopsis of the editorial page, then we can talk as equals on the subject.
Let me tell you about the far right and those vans. Want to know something? The average Japanese thinks the far-right parties are nuts and/or covers for yakuza business interests (which most of them are). They don’t get elected, period. They’re not sitting anyone in the Diet or electing anyone higher than a dogcatcher. And they’re not scary at all. Shit, I stood with my bike on the curb as they passed by and they didn’t even give me a dirty look, much less say anything to me and I’m a brown gaijin. Also, their slogans aren’t anywhere near as inflammatory as you think relative to America. Mostly crap about destroying the traitors within, revering the emperor, Yamato spirit, blah blah blah Dainippon, blah, blah. It’s the equivalent of someone driving a huge pick-up truck in America plastered with Tea Party signs and alternately blasting out Rush Limbaugh, Toby Keith songs and military march chants.
Shintaro Ishihara is about as far right as a mainstream politician can get in modern Japan, and even he’s still in the LDP, and he’s only elected not so much because of his moderate anti-foreign stance, but his strong anti-communism (the JCP is strong in certain Tokyo wards).
And WNs would *hate* living in a nation like Japan. All those tough immigration laws? They work because they’re all part of a giant bureaucratic apparatus that makes even NYC municipal laws seem like Montana. To run a nation like Japan requires a soft authoritarianism that thrives of the consensus of the populace. In short, massive conformism both from the grass roots of the population to the highest echelons of the lawmakers and business powerbrokers. The nail that sticks up and all that. And WNs are anything but conformists, otherwise they wouldn’t be WNs, would they?
No, WN are strongly conformist. They constantly test each other to ensure they all toe the same line, and they don’t allow dissent.
This is fucking idiotic. If you have the consensus and consent of the majority it isn’t authoritarianism. This is the fucking degenerate left-wing/libertarian argument for freedom. You aren’t really free unless you are snorting coke off of a 12 year old Filipino boy’s pelvis. Mormon’s that don’t get drunk and go to bed early aren’t really free and they are pushing for ‘soft authoritarianism’ (also known as self-control).
Which is exactly what I said in my post. I actually called them right-wing kooks. Right-wing kooks that have no American equivalent because it wouldn’t be tolerated. Right-wing kooks that have more fence-sitting sympathizers that exist on the periphery of the movement. They are consequentially far more numerous, active, and public than any theoretical American equivalent (like the Klan, or skinheads).
There is no real American equivalent though. The Japanese far-right is 10x the size of the US one and with a population 1/3 the size (and that is just counting people formally affiliated in Japan versus vague estimates of formally affiliated members of various decentralized, unorganized groups in the US).
Did you not catch the reference to Israel?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Lieberman
Elected enough for you? Mainstream enough for you? Unless I’m totally clueless about Israeli society Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs are probably above ‘dogcather’ over there.
Complete disingenuous bullshit. People who do this aren’t doing it as part of a parade, and there are leaps and bounds of difference between ‘Tea Party’ signs, Rush Limbaugh and Japanese reactionaries. Rush Limbaugh isn’t a reactionary. At worst he hearkens back to the ancient mid-1980s as his Golden Age. Even most of those people with Confederate flag decals on their pickups are just poseurs that have no real political agenda associated with it.
You are so fucking far out in socially acceptable left-wing conspiracy theory land that you draw an actual parallel between Japanese Nationalists that you admit want to worship the emperor as a God and believe in the mystical fighting spirit of the Japanese race and…Rush Limbaugh. Get the fuck out of town. Absolutely ridiculous. You are pushing the Democrat equivalent of Black Helicopter, Fluoride Mind Control Bircher nonsense.
So that’s the perspective you are coming from, just so everyone can read what you are writing for what it is actually worth.
Ethnocentrism is really the only way you can get men to act bravely and women to behave.
The white nationalist isn’t merely the equivalent of one who doesn’t like brussel sprouts, but of one who wishes to ban others from eating brussel sprouts.
ryu,
if you live by the might makes right principle then i’d have to ask why you haven’t gone out and done your duty. if you preach that and if you haven’t fought for the white race with your blood, then i’d call you a coward.
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Chuck, you really had no need getting into this particular arena. This can become a never-ending thing for you and it is not up your alley anyway. I recommend not doing another one of these posts. Just some friendly advice.
BTW, though not a WN myself, we need to recognize that these folks have been shit on in a hyperbolic manner and are basically thrust completely to the side as un-redeemable, procreationally blocked undermen. So they may get a little touchy. some who have harsh tones for them need to bear this in mind, you can agree to disagree, you don’t have to reflexively over-react to them.
Kyle:
WN are conformist within their own little subculture, as are all little subcultures, but within the greater scheme of things they are about as anti-conformist to the mainstream culture as could possibly be. In other words, they are more like the Japanese Red Army Faction or Aum Shin Rikyo than Japanese far-right groups, and as such would be subject to far stronger social and governmental pressure than any the Western government would dare to bring down. If the far right groups tried to do anything like Benjamin Nathanial Smith, much less Tim McVeigh, there would be mass round-ups and crackdowns of any group or anyone that even seemed tangentially related to the act, much like how the remnant membership of Aum Shin Rikyo is under constant surveillance and registration laws. That’s not because Japan is more tolerant of far right wing activity than left wing, after all the Japanese Communist Party actually elects politicians to the national level. It’s that the Japanese far-right are more or less noisy dogs outside of doing things like grand auto-da-fes like Yukio Mishima.
The self-control exhibited by the Japanese is bouyanced by a culture that accepts a far greater level of governmental control and self-reporting of those who don’t follow the rules and regulations than would ever be acceptable in Western culture. Do you like guns? Well, not only is there no need for them, but if for some reason you do have one and someone finds out, boom 5 years prison. Do you want to build an extension to your garage? Better file all the paperwork at the various levels, or expect an order to come to tear it down or pay the stiff penalty fees. Do you hate sorting your garbage into five different bags? Well, your own damn neighbor will report your for your malfeasance if he sees plastic bags in the green waste. Those that don’t have the self-control to accept all the niggling neighborhood, city, prefectural and federal laws of Japan will be hammered down. What, did you think that a conformist culture is that way solely out of the goodness writ into their genes?
Also, you’re far overestimating the size of the far right groups in Japan. Most are smaller than the BNP, the largest ones are either pro-American business groups that have remilitarization as their main plank or Yakuza fronts that bolster their membership by having their foot-soldiers register as members. One of the largest has a membership more interested in the cultural workshops it holds than any sort of political activism. Anyways, you’re moving goalposts. They have zero real influence in Japan, even as bogeymen.
As for what the far right groups are saying, what would be controversial about even the American mainstream right talking points about a strong military, a return to “Christian” values, revering such symbols as the American flag (to the point of laws for not burning a piece of cloth and treating it with reverential protocol), lack of culpability for past foreign adventures, immigration restriction and a love of patriotic symbols and songs? The point is, that stuff is extreme in Japan, but not so in America. Just because they’re talking about Shinto values and revering the Emperor doesn’t mean it’s not a good analogue. They’re basically loud blood and soil nationalists. You can swap the battle flag and Yamato spirit stuff with the “Don’t Tread on Me” and the vague exhortations towards the spirit of Justice, Liberty and the American Way. Yeah, they have a stronger ethnic nationalist component than the American right does, but that’s not the part that makes them so outre. It’s the militaristic and revisionist aspects that make them uncomfortable to be around for the average Japanese citizen. Long story short, they’re nothing like the WNs, and have none of the race war rhetoric so many WNs love.
As for Israel, I’m not fluent in Hebrew, nor well-acquainted with Israeli politics, nor does it even matter for what I’m saying. You said some BS about Japan, and throwing in Israeli politics is a non-sequitor. Granted that I know you’re talking out of your ass about Japan, I’m not inclined to take what you say about Israeli politics that seriously.
Also, as for me being a democrat, Hah! You don’t know me, do you? Anyways, have you seen the policy planks for Japanese far right groups or even the European ones like the BNP? Hardly laissez faire. Hell, it would be difficult for them to be that way given what they believe.
Linder’s not stupid. He is just a fanatic.
Ah, Spike Gomez. Hawaiian. I remember you from IMF.
I do live by the might makes right principle. You do too and every other being on this Earth. Like any man, I pick my battles and fight on the ground of my choosing. My duty isn’t to die, but to win.
I train my body with sport, my mind with science. You may observe that for the last 5 months the regulars on our site all devote 1 hour per day to training in chemistry, biology and anatomy. The notes and lectures are there.
That’s something a moderate cannot convince his readers to do. I will bet that you could not do it here. That’s the difference – WN provides a powerful motive. You don’t believe. Conviction is stronger than reason.
Chuck to Ryu :
if you preach that and if you haven’t fought for the white race with your blood, then i’d call you a coward.
Yep. Why fight when it is safer to troll the manosphere and plead for converts (which hasn’t worked)?
Kudos to Chuck for telling it like it is.
PA,
Ethnocentrism is normal, natural, and good.
Perhaps. But race realism and even ethnocentrism is not white nationalism.
Like I said earlier, I have no delusions about how I, as a Southeastern European American, would have been looked down upon by WASPs until recently. I hope you don’t have such delusions about WASPs treating you well back when they made sure even Irish were second-class citizens.
Nationalism only works around a common language or at the very least a common religion. So no, white nationalism is not of interest to me. An alliance of in-shape people to shame fat people would be more practical and interesting.
Ryu said:
“You may observe that for the last 5 months the regulars on our site all devote 1 hour per day to training in chemistry, biology and anatomy”
Take a wild guess what ethnic group has made seminal advancements in all of those fields (even better if you study modern physics too).
“You may observe that for the last 5 months the regulars on our site all devote 1 hour per day to training in chemistry, biology and anatomy”
So they are still completing their GEDs?
Your ragtag crew won’t get very far if you are still studying for your GEDs. Although I applaud your efforts in getting uneducated whites up to high-school levels of education.
Hard Right said :
Most White Nationalists have Negro IQ’s.
Nikos, White nationalism – or any other ethnic nationanlism, for that matter – concerns itself with the common good of its people, not merely the personal. Yes, the standard Westerner is far more individualistic than those in other societies, but there is still a concern for the good of the race and the nation. You, on the other hand, are all about the personal. You keep repeating that those evil WASPS wouldn’t have accepted you as an equal, so they were bad and you have no vested interest in the society and nation they built – other than to take advantage of its material advantages now. News flash: your southern European homeland is far more ethnonationalist and exclusionary and proud (and with far less reason) than America ever was. Your prime motivation seems to be an abiding grudge against Whites for not finding you as marvellous a societal asset as you seem to consider yourself.
That intense concern with the personal (What’s in it for ME?) reminds me of a black commenter who used to post at SBPDL. He liked to advertise himself as an educated, law-abiding black college student, and had no interest in the historic White nation (which made any education or civilization he had possible) because he saw no personal benefit in it.
Same thing with Spike (I also remember his comments elsewhere). He’s dismissive of White nationalists, because he’s not White and therefore does not identify with their society. At the same time, however, he flaunts his purported proficiency in Japanese and his ability to abide by their society’s restrictive rules. That’s okay, you see, because Japan is not White. America as a White nation with a history and society built by and for a specific people is anathema to the proposition nation sort, and the almost exclusively economic immigrants of the past 50 years (really the past 130 years).
I can’t avoid snowflaking a bit here, but while my DNA is not Anglo-Saxon, I value and esteem the culture and society the founders of this nation sprang from., I see it as a good, in and of itself, regardless of whether they would have recognized me as a suitable citizen. FWIW, I have said before that had I been an immigration official at Ellis Island, I would have turned my own ancestors away. Obviously, I see a place for my children in this nation, and have raised them to esteem their American and Western cultural heritage along with their Christian faith. But I see a value and a need for the cause of White Americans, separate and distinct from my own hopes and values for my indivdual family.
No, since I don’t think most white nationalists want to assume the mantle of leadership for the entire planet, and not even all ‘white people’ against their own will. Continuing this retarded analogy it is currently illegal to not eat brussels sprouts.
Even so, if you wanted to ban brussels sprouts, that doesn’t necessarily imply that you would ban emigration for those that wished to go live in some land where brussels sprouts are either optional or mandatory. For even those that are for the banning of brussels sprouts and the mandatory consumption of spinach in their community doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t allow people to leave to pursue their own peculiar culinary inclinations. It certainly seems like there should at least be room in the world for people that love spinach, and love other people that love spinach, and can’t stand the officious smell of brussels sprouts and the gaseous aftermath of brussels sprouts eaters and don’t want any thing to do with them or their defective taste buds.
Currently though in the US eating brussels sprouts is more or less mandatory though. That I might be willing to put them on the menu if it suits me, which seems to be mistakenly assumed to be the status quo, isn’t enough. They currently must be served everywhere that there are people that eat food, limited supply withstanding. If you aren’t being force fed brussels sprouts, you have lucked out, or you have the resources to live in an area that has low brussels sprouts supply. That’s not a real choice though, as it is in the works that the mouths:sprouts ratio is going to be decreased so that there will be so many brussels sprouts that you can’t simply hid the rare few that wind up on your plate underneath your napkin anymore. The ability to opt out of brussels sprouts is unintended and will be corrected given time.
In the current climate, advocating that you simply prefer something other than brussels sprouts is intolerable. There is absolutely no concern for the culinary desires of all disparate kinds of diners. We, as a society are strictly only concerned that all people must eat brussels sprouts to prove that they don’t prefer something else. It’s much more important that all people eat them, and pretend to like the taste of it, than it is for people to actually choose what they get to eat. You must eat them, you must pretend you have chosen to do so, and you must pretend to like it. Maybe you like your sprouts, so you don’t notice. If you didn’t like it, it wouldn’t matter as you aren’t really permitted to alter your diet. Can we not even agree that the option to not eat brussels sprouts has to at least be on the table before we get to the point of complaining about those people who you believe would force you to eat some alternative widely loathed vegetable?
Let’s stop pretending that the status quo is about the ability to pick and choose what gets fed to you, and that the white nationalists are the ones really trying to force things down your throat. Ultimately white nationalists are talking about forming communities where only a group of people that mutually define themselves as being similar to each other and of reasonable like-mindedness are allowed membership in those communities. A place where outsiders, defined by the community itself, don’t get to determine what is permissible, mandatory and forbidden.
That seems pretty ‘pro-freedom’ to me. I’m sure the vast majority of all white nationalists don’t want any white people that personally feel that they need to be ‘enriched’ by non-whites as members of these communities. You’d have to decide what is more important between the prescribed way of life that the founders mutually agreed upon, or your chonga fetish and undying love for cheap chalupas. That you might be torn between these two no doubt equally tempting, yet mutually exclusive societies doesn’t really involve force of any kind. You can either have all of these apparently very stupid white people doing whatever it is that white people do, or your chongas, chalupas, sambos and ‘soul’ music, with no doubt lots of great white people to enjoy it all with.
The option to do what you want still exists in this counterfactual scenario; there is just an opportunity cost involved, as with all choices. Basically this charge of theoretical future oppression sounds like complaining that people whom you don’t agree with and don’t like will be depriving you of their intolerable company.
Those who disagree with my use of the word “stupid” here assume that I care to put much effort in coming up with a better word to describe these people. Would “misguided” work?
By what, other than his words, is a writer to be judged? “Misguided” could work. In the context of genocide, “evil” works. The problem with “stupid” is, it is the second-resort word used by lefties to attack “racists”, who are unshamed by the label “racist”. It is empty name-calling, and can only persuade cud-chewing head-nodders. A recent commenter here (Denise?) was a target of this form of attack. Instead of breaking down her assertions, several people lobbed “your just an idiot with a 2nd-grade education” grenades at her, as if those statements alone were self-proving and clinching arguments. Ask a logic or debate instructor if those are valid arguments.
Anyway, my first real objection to “stupid” came years ago in a discussion with an Israeli kid, who said the Nazis were “stupid” because they wanted to exterminate an entire race. I had to correct him, because (a) it was evil, not stupid; (b) if they indeed killed all those people without leaving over 1 billion bones of evidence behind, they must’ve had above-average intelligence to pull that off; (c) never delude yourself by scoffing that your mortal enemy (Nazis, to Jews) is “stupid”.
As for why Ryu doesn’t wear an armband and spill blood in the streets for the WN, WTF should he? 99.9% of his own whites would reward such acts of “duty” by publicly demonizing him on a McVeighic level.
Sheila,
Your screed is just a bunch of shaming language, from a woman who demands that men sacrifice themselves for you. Your interest in white nationalism is nothing more than that and the freebies you want as a woman.
Ethnic pride is not the same thing as white nationalism. Deal with it.
I value and esteem the culture and society the founders of this nation sprang from.,
As do I. This has nothing to do with white nationalism. This is the byproduct of an Anglo-Protestant value system, and you or I valuing it is the same thing as an Asian or Mexican (or Black conservative like Herman Cain) valuing it. The argument for American Exceptionalism is a good one, but is not at all correlated to an argument for white nationalism. .
Again, nothing in your shaming-language screed makes a case for white nationalism, other than the fact that you like how as a woman, WN results in you being pedestalized.
Ryu:
If that’s true, you’re an even sadder bunch of losers than I thought. Here’s a tip, learn reading comprehension before you start on big boy books without large pictures.
Oh and before you talk about me dismissing your arguments, let me remind you that according to your own belief system you can dismiss me out of hand because I’m not white. Why should I even address you seriously when you would never do the same? You post all around these places, but you’ve yet to convince anyone who wasn’t already a WN of your arguments. And even half the other serious WNs here think you’re not exactly the best person do be doing evangelical work for your cause due the fact you can’t construct a coherent argument for the life of you, and come across as a huge hypocritical creep with a violence boner.
Sheila:
Hey at least I’m not the WN going under a Japanese video game character’s name. If you even read what I posted, I’m hardly painting Japanese society as ideal, nor one I want to live in for the rest of my life. I coped well with it, and enjoyed the time I spent working and living there, but home beckoned.
As for not loving white culture, I’ve probably read more of the Western Canon than all the fucking WNs here combined. You see, when you read the intellectual fruits of Wstern Civilization, you quickly come to the conclusion that the only place where “Might is Right” is people who said they read Nietschze but actually didn’t. My beef with WN is:
1. What Chuck said above. It’s moral and intellectual pinings don’t exist. It openly reviles objective morality, rationalism and empiricism, the actual underpinings of Western civilization. In short, it’s all about relativism and feeling. You know what is also like that? Our shitty post-modern culture.
2. It’s fake ethnic nationalism. There is a French nation, German nation, English nation, Scottish nation, a multitude of white ethnys and white cultures, but there is nothing that binds them other than a very general shared genetic descent. If anything Europe was and is still riven by true nationalist clashes, Irish vs English, Flemish vs Walloon. And that is as it should be, after all I do not begrudge the Flemish for wanting to preserve their language and culture which has a long recorded history, from both the Walloons AND demographic invasion via immigration. What I begrudge is the WN notion that the Flemish and Walloons are essentially the same, that they’re all part of a unified White Culture. WN is just multiculturalism for white people, and like regular multiculturalism, it is intolerant of dissent, and devoid of a moral, intellectual and historical standing.
3. It’s a modern innovation, barely over 100 years old as it. Sure people were aware of ethnicity before that, but the important thing was actual national identification. A mestizo peasant in New Spain was closer to the grande in Madrid than the grande was to an English shopkeeper. WN as it is arose out of the same late 19th century European intellectual ferment that loads of other garbage ideologies arose from.
4. We have an historical example of a nation that took a particularist variation of it as a central plank for their national values. Suffice to say it didn’t work out well for them in the long run. Namely since it holds that all white’s interests coincide, they had some real boundary issues with their white national neighbors who disagreed with their interpretation. Oh, and they were real big on the violent language thing as well. Now just because most WNs now think Slavs are white doesn’t make me any less uncomfortable since by their ideology I’m the enemy.
5. The last and biggest is that the greatest enemy to WNs and even regular nationalists hasn’t been blacks, mixed races Polynesians like me, or even the Jews. It was and always has been their co-ethnics. T’weren’t Moshe in the ghettos of Paris, Kunta Kinte in the Gold Coast or Kamehameha that started the French Revolution. Nor was it them that imported slaves to America. They didn’t draft the first liberal laws, nor were they the driving forces behind the various revolutions of 1848 and in Russia. The current Eurocrats are mostly of the same ethnic group as the nation they arise out of. You have met the enemy, and yet you refuse to even admit, it really ain’t us that’s giving you shit in the end.
Kyle:
Then do it. Shit or get off the pot. Form your own Orangia out in Montana or Utah. Private community compounds can and do exist out there. Just pay your taxes, be respectful of the neighbors who don’t share your values, and follow the laws of the land and feds won’t bother you. They didn’t bother the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints for decades until it got out that their prophet was diddling kids. If the feds come knocking saying “We’ve heard you got explosives blah blah blah”, let them in, show them you don’t have them, and send them on their merry way. Do it until they don’t give a shit about you because you’ve proven all you really want is to be left alone with your way of life.
If y’all did that, I’d have respect for you. But I doubt it’ll happen. You’d rather bellyache over the net about how everyone despises you.
to tell you all the truth, it’s my birthday so i went out and got fucked up so i didn’t read deeply into what has been written in this thread, but, if i’m going to speak truthfully, there’s something a bit more off about American racists compared to racists or nationalists from other nations. i mean, there’s a bit of a gap between the sophistication of the two groups. most of the out and out racist/bigoted ppl that visit this blog are advocating for something which they don’t truly believe.
Ryu, just shut the fuck up man. Who the fuck are you kidding? I’ve heard you on Robert Stark. You’re a fucking wimp dude. You’re a white nationalist out of cowardice as are most white nationalists. that is the jumping off point for most of the people who subscribe to what you’re preaching – i’ll assume that nick digger fits the motif.
You are conflating mainstream American culture with what you see on TV from Hawaii or Japan. Mainstream culture isn’t what a tiny minority of ideologically, religioiusly and ethnically disimilar elites push as a narrative. More than half of the least racist generation of white Americans are definibly inveterate racists according “mainstream culture”. A large majority of Americans are against open borders yet open borders is the policy of both political parties. White nationalists don’t conform to what J-schoolers, and dynastic politicians have decided is “mainstream culture” and neither does most of America.
You do realize that if I lived in England I’d be sent to prison for years based on my Internet postings alone, right? Japan’s lack of tolerance for non-conformity isn’t a uniquely Japanese trait, and for all of your weeaboo cred, I think you are lacking in much of a connection to what life is actually like in much of the mainland US.
So like most of New England then, yeah? If you are in Old England better not let anyone know you’ve got a knife either.
Welcome to Anywhere, USA. You are describing everywhere that is very white. Do you think white people, all of these busy body little Germanic and English Protestants, all of the SWPLs are really tolerant of you not recycling properly? Do you not realize that many cities have these same kinds of ordnance along with funding trash inspections and doling out of fines for not sorting your waste properly? That virtually every legitimately middle-class community in the US has all kinds of red tape regarding what you can do with your own property. I’ve got to go get a permit to erect a tiny shed in my own fenced in back yard. I’ve got to then pay additional taxes for the luxury of having a place to store my lawnmower, which I’m not permitted to leave outside of the shed I’m not certain to have permission to build in the first place. These are a like really common problems for everyone in the US. Do you really think we live in some libertarian ‘utopia’ where I can just ramshackle decide I’m going to add another story to my house, and park a ferris wheel in my driveway?
I do trust that the Japanese are more conformist in general than the US is currently, but that’s not really a matter of things being how our social betters intend them, and it’s not something that was always true. Ruthless conformity is sort of a WASP/German stereotype after all. It’s not so much that America is very ‘free’ so much as that it is much less governable for lot of reasons.
All of the things you listed are controversial in America. Some extremely so. Some so controversial that they can’t even be discussed.
I also disagree that all of these things are extremely controversial in Japan, as you claim. Restricting immigration is extremely controversial in Japan but not in America? I had doubts about you being in tune with Everytown, USA, but now I’m wondering if you are even from this fucking planet. There are countless articles in even ostensibly conservative publications that discuss things like white flight from California that refuse to mention non-whites as a factor. Grrr, it’s those “liberal policies” I bet!
The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. The policies of Japan and America couldn’t be more different everywhere it counts.
Well, except you are comparing what you call nuts to mainstream American right-wingers, which isn’t really germane to the discussion, but I’ll continue…
So basically you are in fact comparing Rush Limbaugh and country music to Nazism then?
Except you really can’t swap those things. That’s like saying you can swap the “Don’t Tread on Me” and the vague exhortations towards the spirit of Justice, Liberty and the American Way with Swastikas and Nazis. They don’t mean the same thing. You are describing similarities of superficial trappings versus what those symbols and themes are actually meant to represent. Sure waving flags, and singing songs are the same activity everywhere, but I doubt most people would agree that they are all basically interchangeable in meaning.
Yes, here, we’ve hit upon the crux. They have a strong ethnic nationalist component that doesn’t make them so outre by Japanese standards. Don’t you think that is like a huge caveat? A really massive difference. Sort of what of I’ve been trying to hit upon the entire time. That Japan is like super fucking intolerably racist by American standards, and super-super racists can have actual parades in the streets of Japanese cities, and the only thing that makes Japanese people uncomfortable is that these racists want to start World War 3 and brainwash children (which to me at least seems pretty sane). Everyone is ok with not turning Japan into a Chinese and Korean colony though. They can all agree on that.
See in America we have this huge issue with not not brainwashing people into believing lots of things we aren’t entirely sure to be true, in addition to our immense problem with not potentially starting the next massive, catastrophic war to engulf at least one hemisphere (I can’t recall which one atm; it’s the one with Israel in it) and not diminishing the population share of the majority, and founding racial group of the nation, and completely destroying their culture is not an acceptable position to take.
So basically, diametric opposition on those big existential issues. So I guess I can concede that only on those issues that relate basically to life and death are there significant differences in the Japanese political landscape compared to America. If you discount the fact that it is not uncouth to believe that Japan should remain Japanese, and it is uncouth to think that anywhere on the planet should remain white…well I don’t really know where to go with that. I’m pretty sure it shouldn’t just be glossed over as some insignificant peculiarity that has no real bearing on anything when compared to what really matter, waving apparently interchangeable flags and enjoying jaunty marching music.
Well, engaging in “race war” in Japan would involve a bit more effort than in the US. For example, you’d have to probably get on a boat and go to someone else’s country if you are Japanese. These things are contextual I imagine.
Of course not. Not that I actually said anything. I posted a link that you could read for yourself. Not that it matters, since you live in TV-filtered America, so I doubt you’d see any distinction between Lieberman’s platform of naked racial segregation and rescinding the citizenship of Arabs as being any different than non-party affiliated right-wing commentators opposing HUD in the US.
I don’t, and I didn’t call you a Democrat. I said you subscribe to pop-culture conspiracy theories. I meant that your impression of what America is like seems much more influenced by the hysterically inaccurate perceptions of the media versus what life is actually like in much of America.
After all there isn’t any significant difference than Japanese fascists on parade and a guy listening to Rush Limbaugh with his window rolled down. I don’t know. I think to most people that actually live in America, that sounds sort of crazy and out of touch. I mean, I don’t mind that you sound crazy and out of touch. This is the Internet. I just don’t think that you think that you sound crazy and out of touch, with all of these crazy and out of touch comparisons.
I mean, it’s like these people that think that George Zimmerman, the left-wing pardo octaroon decided to go out cruising for some good ole niggerslaying fun, stalked some unsuitably dark-skinned 12 year old prospective future president of space and murdered him in cold blood while he screamed for help, then called the police so they could swing by to admire his impressive niggerslaying, give him a high-five, offer to buy him a beer and send him on his merry way as the most likely explanation of what happened think they sound completely rational, where as a normal person would think that is crazy-sounding and out of touch with reality.
Kyle:
1. I don’t own a TV.
2. You seem to be debating with a strawman of my argument and moving goalposts all over the place. In short, I’m not going to waste anymore time with you.
I will say one thing to everyone else. Yes, Japan is a racist society compared to the United States and Western Europe. I dealt with it a few times while I was there. The most it ever amounted to was having to show cops my residency papers for no reason, being refused admittance to certain bars and a handful of glares and whispered comments. Not once did the racism of Japan ever feel threatening, disturbing or particularly alienating, just an inconvenience to be dealt with. I didn’t feel fear when the far right wingers passed by when I was on the curb, nor when a bus of them showed up while I was visiting Atsuta Shrine. Hell, they weren’t even rude or combative. Not one person told me I should leave the country. Why should they? I had done all the correct paperwork, I never argued with them, and respected their cultural values even when I didn’t want to. Hell, I would even venture some would be impressed that a foreigner would be more into visiting shrines and learning about Tokugawa era writers than visiting than manga shops or learning how to pick up Japanese chicks. The old dude I worked with once a week was, and he constantly complained about the Brazilians in town (though to be fair, he wasn’t a member or supporter of the far-right groups, he was just a crusty old conservative floor manager of a factory).
Compare that with the feeling I would get standing alone on the curb while 30 skinheads in vans slowly drove by me. Or say, trying to discuss Hildegaard of Bingen with a WN. That in total describes the main reason why I think WNs are fucked up expressions of ethnic nationalism.
White Nationalism is a form of tribalism more than anything else and as such doesn’t require or need discussion or rational analysis. Its a very human, us or them kind of thing and its something that happens in every culture. How much you’ll get will depend on how tight the culture us and if you aren’t into it, you can understand it but you’ll; never get it
Now the current US culture is driven by the toxic stew of Universalism and Capitalism working together, the multi-cult with positively stupid interchangeable humanity ideas and capitalists constantly needing more markets and cheap labor for growth. Both ideas are inherently dumb and anti human — however a caveat, technology.
I can understand why the universalist types want it what they believe to be true, we live in a world where a large scale war could possibly end the human race. If differences can be eradicated or lessened than humanity can survive and people can get rich. Its basically a kind of religious doctrine really but perfectly comprehensible on those lines.
As for the WM, why is them wanting a land of their own such a threat? If they want to exclude people they dislike, they ought to be allowed to do that as much as they like. The kind of forced association by force and border neglect practiced by the current system is an authoritarian model fit for only prisoners or serfs not a free people. To use the Brussels Sprouts analogy what we have now is the state saying you must have that food in your kitchen out of fairness and that your kids need to be taught the food is good and yummy even when its not those people.
Also re: the education issue, the shift in WN thinking from the 1.0 to the 2.0 is kind of interesting
. Going from say the skinhead and White Power movements to WN’s being educated citizens is not a simple social change . However if you visit some of the blogs you’ll see them practicing college level work, and all kinds of self improvement not just simple stuff. Given that many of these folks are poor, this might be the first time they’ve really been able to have this data and with the Internet may get a culture to support them as learners . Sure some are not all that bright and won’t benefit much but that doesn’t matter. Many will try if by by peer pressure and get stronger for it.
Also not all of them assume everyone not White is stupid, inferior and evil , thats the old school White Supremacists. I have no idea if Ryu has those leanings .
The modern WN, people like Keivsky fully acknowledge that other peoples are smart or can be smarter. Its about competition and building up his folks and avoiding getting stomped by a hostile state. Its actually much more dangerous than WN 1.0 in many ways. Some of those guys may end with brains and money not just hate and nerve .
A few may l become brilliant and who know, maybe they’ll learn to uplift people or build gene weapons or something.
So, if I start a business in this private community compound that only employs whites and only serves whites I won’t run into any problems with the EEOC or Justice Department? You are talking about some exurban whitopia. Yeah, sure that is great for some, but that’s just sticking your head in the sand. Your children, and grandchildren aren’t going to have those same options, and most white people aren’t going to have those kinds of resources. It’s an option for the rich, regardless of their politics, and most of them take it. No white person with resources lives anywhere but a whitopia.
FLDS soaked the State for welfare. That’s how they subsist, and they can only really do it in Utah. They didn’t crack down when they found out about the kiddy diddling. Fuck, they knew about the polygamy, and that is illegal. They started cracking down when it was made public that they were soaking 8-digit figures every year in welfare and virtually no one in a small town had a job. That could only really fly in certain places in the US. FLDS compounds can’t just happen anywhere. They require(d) the largess and good will of sympathizers.
Dude, I promise I’ll stop talking about Japan since I’m talking out my ass if you’ll stop talking out of your ass about America and actually live here to find out what actually happens. Do you really think no group of white people have ever tried to set up a modern day, all white town? Do you really think that there are companies out there that serve blacks, or entertain black custom except to avoid legal complications?
I mean, if there are all of these ‘private compounds’ out there that aren’t like the Kennedy Compound, can you name some of them? I mean, do you honestly, really think that a group of explicitly racist whites would be left alone by the government and be left alone to invite more whites to come live in their communities and completely deny entrance to any non-whites? I mean, really? Do you believe that is realistically possible Chuck?
Look, this has all been gone over before.
1)This isn’t just a post-modernist phenomena. Anyone can, and pretty much anyone has come up with some complex ethical system that people can pretend to follow as a justification for anything, but no one really does or ever has. So white nationalists are continuing in a long tradition of not having the answer to every question, especially ones being asked by someone that is specifically looking for nits to pick. That’s not really the point.
2)This is a non sequitur. White nationalism is almost an entirely American phenomena, and few American whites have any folkways from the ‘Old Country’. For the most part I don’t think most white nationalists have but the vaguest feelings of camaraderie with these foreign whites. The connection to these far flung white people is by far more a product of the near uniformity of the international left’s policies than it is for any perceived familiarity between groups.
Regardless, you are basically declaring that no group of people may ever seek any kind of self-determination. We better go ahead and wipe America off the map. ‘Americans’ is another ‘fake’ group. Or does that not work? Americans get to be real right, because that is what “feels” right to you because being born in between a particular set of lines on a map is what really counts, right? But we can’t base it on feelings can we? So where you are born matters, but not who actually gave birth to you. Fucking confusing.
So not only is there no such thing as ‘white people’, there also never will be. Despite all of the laws, social policies, et cetera that explicitly refer to and pertain to white people. It’s ok for white people to exist from the perspective of the government, media, academia, et cetera, just not from the perspective of white people themselves. We are to remain comfortably Irish, Scottish, German, et cetera, and fight among ourselves. Except when this division results in a minority group, at which point we miraculously become monolithic and united as ‘white people’ once again.
3)White nationalism is certainly less than 100 years old. I don’t know when or where the term got coined but I can’t imagine any cries for white nationalism on the cusp for WW1, given that the country was almost entirely white, and you had to be white to immigrate here, and likewise with basically every other country populated predominately by white people on the planet.
You have the rest almost completely backwards as well. Nationality in modern terms is also very new. It also arose at basically the exact same time that you declare ‘white nationalism’ (which I presume you to mean ‘white people’) arose. You even bother to cite a country riven by ethnic squabbling, which seems to greatly supersede ‘nationality’ just about everywhere. I assume you haven’t clearly articulated what you meant with this point. Nationality, as in State-based identity was popularized much more recently than identity based on who your ancestors are.
4)Yes, yes, Hitler was a very bad man, and all white people are incipient Nazis. From the moment they are born they are just waiting for the right cue to start goose stepping their way toward the nearest boarder to seek a fresh crop of victims. It’s the unique evil of white people; which is very impressive as they are apparently a ‘fake’ group. It’s really amazing how there is no such thing as ‘white people’ minute, and then suddenly when it is time for some collective guilt we are all Nazis waiting for our next Hitler.
Also good to know that everything that happened to Germany was 100% the Nazis fault. There was no way but war, to save the Jews no doubt. It had absolutely nothing to do with petty geopolitical wrangling to maintain the status quo between current superpowers and everything to do with all of those anti-racists in the UK and US wanting to take the Nazis out because of their racism.
Certainly neither country, especially not the UK at the time was a fan of saber-rattling rhetoric, or say administering a vast global empire without the consent of a billion subjects. It certainly isn’t true that the US today is rhetorically violent and aggressive, or that it isn’t respectful of borders. No, with our little robot airplanes we can bomb people in all kinds of countries without actually crossing their borders per se. No, Nazis are both completely unique, evil and fully representative of all white people, who will circumstantially exist for the purpose of being labeled as Nazis, for all time.
5)Yes, every group has their quislings. This is also addressed above, and endlessly everywhere white racist people talk about being white racists. Every group that has any internal enemies should just immediately disband. Blacks should immediately disband and have no further ethnic loyalties because Bill Cosby. It’s one of those things that only makes sense when talking about white people.
Pretty much everyone is their own worst enemy. The expression “cutting off the nose to spite the face” is meant as a precaution, not a suggestion.
What it all boils down to is: “How dare you ask us difficult questions! This isn’t supposed to be logical! It’s all about FEELINGS and PRIDE. Don’t you try to get us with GOTCHAS, we are not obliged to be coherent! Also BOOHOOHOO EVERYONE HATES US. But wait till the OJ riots/peak oil/the housing market crash/the Zimmerman verdict/Obama’s second term when the shit hits the fan! We’ll all come out of the woodwork and show those other races and race traitors and YKW a good what for!
Jesus H. Christ. What a bunch of bleeding fucking pussies. It’s like arguing with a Jezebel poster. You can’t nail them to anything because VICTIMHOOD and “We don’t need no steenking logic, our feelings are all that matters! And you’re a big poopyhead oppressor!”
Stick a fork in me, I’m done. I’ve wasted too many hours today I could have used more productively. The quote about internet arguments being like the special Olympics is true here. I feel like my IQ dropped three sigmas, and that I need a shower.
I’m not shifting any goalposts on you. There is just no equivalence between you being a polite foreigner visiting a country, and being an American citizen in the multi-ethnic US.
Circumstances can change a lot of things, and you don’t want to acknowledge that. You want to assign some pathological element to it based on your personal feelings of security around white people, or their willingness to engage you in conversation. That’s a completely silly metric.
Do you not even read what you write? In your own words your own metric is your subjective feelings around white people. This is the same shit you did at IMF. Oh no, don’t fucking quote the shit he just said back at him.
You don’t FEEL threatened by japs, you do FEEL threatened by whites. The only one here talking about how the things that make their tender heart hurt informs their opinions is you.
You feel that you deserve some kind of explanation and justification for the way other people want to live their lives, who they associate with, how they assign their loyalties, because it suits your PRIDE to be the judge of what is acceptable (for white people) and use a bunch of nonsense that you think sounds clever.
You are nothing but a sophist and that’s all you’ve ever been. You want to wheel out some outrageous slur that all white people that have any racial consciousness or pride are just waiting to sprout jackboots and invade their neighbors (so disrespectful). Which is apparently some uniquely white phenomena, while your beloved japs showing any ethnic pride aren’t similarly prone to going berserk despite a similarly non-stellar track record in refraining from dehumanizing atrocities against everyone not Japanese caught in their warpath. This distinction is so perfectly logical right?
Let’s not pretend that all of this isn’t about how you FEEL, and you can drop the pretense about being some kind of carefully conditioned biological robot that processes information in an impartial manner and comes at the ugh logical conclusion you mere mortals.
So why not give us full disclosure. How many assbeatings have you taken from skinheads (lots of skinheads in Hawaii I assume to have 30 of them on one side-walk; skinheads do famously like to work on their tans)? What is your frame of reference in feeling afraid of being beaten by whites?
Go easy on Chuck.
I don’t really think we can expect a waiter (!) to use a better term than “stupid”.
Haha, good work, K(yle). Funny how just scratching the surface of Spike’s “rational” critique of WN revealed his irrational fear of white people. Just the fact that he’s trying to compare the ethnic feelings of the average Japanese to the ethnic feelings of entrenched whites who are constantly harassed and ostracized for merely having ethnic feelings is absurd.
What it comes down to is this: there’s a spectrum of alt righters that libertarian on one extreme and WN on the other. Both sides take into account human biodiversity. On the libertarian extreme, alt righters would be content with a U.S. that looks something like Brazil in terms of ethnic demographics (non-white masses with a white elite). On the WN extreme, whites are acknowledged to have ethnic interests like any other ethnic group and therefore want to see an end to the “browning” of the U.S. and Europe. My guess is that Chuck is closer to the libertarian side.
That’s a good summation Anonymoose. I’d add though that even people who lean toward the libertarian side are mostly libertarian in concept, ie. when discussing this stuff online, rather than in practice. In practice everyone is as close to the WN end as they can manage. Any difference between libertarians and WNs in what they want in their own life is a trivial difference in racial tolerance on the margins.
LOL, PA u still here? How does Lara’s pussy taste?
Guys like Jared Taylor or KMAC (neither of whom have identified themselves as WN ) are more properly described as “white rights” or “white identity” activists. Both of these guys are very benign compared to either Bill Ayers or Bill Kristol. Of the four, Ayers is the one I’d choose as “most likely to invade Poland and set up concentration camps.”
I’m no more threatened by the average white than I am by the average Japanese person. Otherwise I would be loathe half my genetic content, my own grandfather, my roommates, 75% of my coworkers, half my friends and my own damn girlfriend. I’m threatened by the violent amoral rhetoric of publically identified WNs. And before you point at AmRen and Jared Taylor, take a look at the internet stats for the AmRen site and the net stats for Stormfront. The “fringe” WNs are the ones with the most traffic. Thank God WNs are less than 0.01% of the white population. Hell, you’re not even the largest group in the alt-right ‘o sphere.
Let me put it this way: I’m not threatened by being a lone foreigner while a bunch of far right Japanese parade right past me. I can hold a intelligent, respectful conversation with a right-wing Japanese person. I would be on my bike and pumping as fast as I could if I was alone and a group of WNs came parading by me. Know why? Openly identified WN have the same behavioral patterns as BBB when they’re in large groups and they find an easy target. And the WN answer for BBB is for WBB in return. A real race to the fucking bottom.
Speaking of races to the bottom, enjoy the Special Olympics medals for winning this internet argument, gentlemen.
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Spike – sorry you are leaving. I found your comments to be very enlightening. In the event that you do read this, I wonder if you can tell me whether the Japanese would look upon the mixed race progeny of a black/Japanese the same way that they would the mixed race progeny of a white/Japanese? Something tells me not. I do not ask this to be provocative, I just want to know.
The whole WN thing is made up of complete idiots. Suppose they had their promised land of all white people. Then they would discriminate between southern Europeans and northern Europeans. I’ve seen arguments like this. They are insanely anti-Semitic, and think European Jews aren’t white. They are a huge obstacle to race realism and enacting sensible immigration reform.
Spike–
I haven’t spent a lot of time on AmRen but for the last few months I have gone and read there from time to time, and I just haven’t seen that sort of opposition to white NE Asian marriages. White and black yes.
Certainly white supremacists feel as you say and the more extreme segregationist WN types.
As for myself I do think integration and diversity was and is taken too far. I think there should be a complete end to section 8 housing invading affluent or solidly middle class white neighborhoods.
No more violent and amoral than mainstream conservatives and their pro-gun rhetoric, with their ’2nd amendment solutions’ and lots and lots of liberal nerd revenge fantasies.
There is no substantial difference between Tim Wise eagerly awaiting what “you and yours getting what you deserve” when the browning of America is complete and ‘Day of the Rope’ fantasies from white nationalists.
Grow a pair.
You do realize that Stormfront (and VNN) are forums right? Regardless, lets’ take a look at the cumulative traffic stats of Stormfront and VNN, the only two real hardline white right forums versus the thousands of combined, more moderate, pro-white, racially conscious websites. Maybe Stormfront would be more popular, I don’t know, but I doubt it.
Regardless, if your perception of those terrifying WNs comes from Stormfront then that is hilarious, because it is one half nerdwank forum and one half redneck. You aren’t afraid of all white people; just like the ones that look like they might post on stormfront.
http://i52.tinypic.com/28248dx.jpg
How would you know if they were parading by you? Has it ever actually happened. To have a fear of something shouldn’t it have some basis in reality? Because yours does not.
But where does this happen in real life compared to your mad with fear fever dreams? I mean, outside of skinhead gangs, which are orders of magnitude the least violent kind of gang in the country, where you do you have examples of openly, explicitly racist white people behaving badly?
I mean this whole discussion kicked off by a bunch of regular black people attempting to murder their neighbor in broad daylight, and the openly identified WN response was not to get a lynch mob together, but to pass out pamphlets.
This shit only really happens in your imagination.
For the record you’d probably get your ass beat in Japan too if you had the kind of “thoughtful” conversations you have on the Internet.
You can start off your talk with explaining how Japanese are a “fake” people and don’t deserve to exist. Put forward your plan to ensure that Japan becomes successively less Japanese in each new generation by crossbreeding their daughters with Africans, and importing several million foreigners every year selected by desirable qualities like having been a failed guerrilla in their homeland, infected with incurable diseases, or just generally so socially noxious that all of their own countrymen want them dead (you also support importing these people’s domestic enemies that they are “escaping” from), or alternatively anyone who can just physically get there. Then you can leap to instituting domestic policies that promote foreigners over Japanese, and pay them to not work, and have lots of children. Maybe they wouldn’t put your lights out, but your conversation would no doubt come to an abrupt end.
PA–
Hey man, link me to the overheated Gorbachev comment you referred to above. I always like me some good overheated Gorbachev rants.
“No more violent and amoral than mainstream conservatives and their pro-gun rhetoric, with their ’2nd amendment solutions’ and lots and lots of liberal nerd revenge fantasies.”
What the fuck are you talking about, Kyle?
Spike, at 5:16, a.m: “Stick a fork in me, I’m done. I’ve wasted too many hours today I could have used more productively. The quote about internet arguments being like the special Olympics is true here. I feel like my IQ dropped three sigmas, and that I need a shower.”
Spike, at 2:30, p.m: I’m no more threatened by the average white than I am by…” blah, blah, blah…
Why the guy that says he is leaving never actually, – you know – leave?
Re the conversation between Spike and Kyle:
This seems to be a faulty comparison. Nationalist Japanese want to keep foreigners out of the country. They also probably have some hostility towards Americans for WW2 and for the military presence. I’m not sure of the complete argument made by Japanese Nationalists.
But the White (American) Nationalist argument is quite different. The similarity starts and ends at the opposition to outside immigration. America is not occupied by a foreign government in any meaningful way. We have been attacked over the years, but our attackers don’t really control our trade routes or limit our economy.
WN’s are mostly just pissed that they live around blacks. But the argument has been made many times, who is to blame for that and what could be done about it?
So I don’t know if Spike said it straight out or not, but American WN’s have a much less defensible position than a Japanese nationalist. I don’t think either group is especially dangerous, but the WN argument is much more pervasive, vitriolic, and out-of-touch.
K(yle): “Let’s stop pretending that the status quo is about the ability to pick and choose what gets fed to you, and that the white nationalists are the ones really trying to force things down your throat. Ultimately white nationalists are talking about forming communities where only a group of people that mutually define themselves as being similar to each other and of reasonable like-mindedness are allowed membership in those communities. A place where outsiders, defined by the community itself, don’t get to determine what is permissible, mandatory and forbidden.”
I haven’t read this entire comment thread, as I just don’t give a damn about professed white nationalists. However I do think that our society, in its zeal to be evenhanded, has violated a core principle of social organizations. Even animals recognize the right to exclude others from a group, or the right to go off and start your own group if you don’t like one you’re in. Modern America won’t permit the existence of white-only or men-only organizations. I don’t see how this is legally permissable, or even how it’s feasible under a legal system that is supposed to presume innocence that “*ism” charges must be refuted rather than proven.
Nikos–
Most of the Irish acted like second class citizens for quite a while in America. Read Thomas Sowell on the subject. Tremendous amounts of drunkness, brawling, work absenteeism, and so on. Lots of stirring up trouble in the workplace. Highly disruptive. The Irish who came over in the wake of the potato feminine tend to have no skills useful in cities (they didn’t make much of a success as farmers in America either, and generally didn’t chose that way of life here), and to have little to no family history or culture of education. That according to Sowell is the reason that signs saying “No Irish Need Apply” were not uncommon for quite a while in NYC and other cities. It wasn’t that they were Catholic. Employers were often happy to hire Italians in contrast, since most tended to make good reliable workers.
The Irish and their relative place in American life changed enormously starting in the early 20th century though.
I think Greeks have always been thought of rather fondly in America so far as I know. Sort of a colorful ethnicity with good ethnic food and a proclivity to run diners.
Does Jared Taylor consider white and E Asian marriages and kids from such unions anathema? I don’t think I’ve ever seen or heard him say things along those lines. But it’s not like I read to listen to him that much.
Spike–
From what looking I’ve done which is some at AmRen in recent months and just enough at Stormfront to see if it’s as bad as the left claims (it pretty much is), the two are VERY different beasts. Stormfront is pretty much consonant with the KKK although they may not advocate terrorism just yet, don’t know.
Will:
I came back mostly to address the attack that I was threatened by white people. I am not. I suppose you could say I’m threatened by vitriolic idiocy.
Chuck:
Some groups are pro-American, some are anti-American. The only main plank they really all share in common is anti-Chinese sentiment and a push towards remilitarization. A couple of them are pro-Taiwanese and pro-Korean (don’t ask me how that works). Only a minority of them really focus on the immigration issue as central, but all of them are against open borders. None of them are like the late Tokugawa Era nationalists who wanted to seal up the borders again and strangle all the Christian converts and half-breeds. The one predominant in my town did have a strong anti-immigrant focus due to the number of Brazilian “returnees” who worked there.
The whole thing about ethny is pretty interesting. Many of the Brazilians were 100% ethnic Japanese, but weren’t considered as such by the locals. They didn’t act or dress Japanese. They acted and dressed like Brazilians (though to me this seemed to extend only to dressing more casually and colorfully, being slightly boisterous and cooking really strong smelling food; i.e. they didn’t act like Cariocas).
Sheila–
Now you’ve got me curious. Would you mind saying what your ethnicity is?
I btw am not a white nationalist but am a race realist.
Kyle—
That’s preposterous. Of course there are white people in America – and Australia, New Zealand, Canada and so on. Both whites in such countries and other races definitely think there are whites. The fact that whites can be subdivided by national origin in Europe and by religious background doesn’t change that. There has tended to develop a white American melting pot culture though it’s lumpy. Blacks and reservation Amerindians are the least assimilated Americans and that isn’t incidentally because they’re other and in many ways oppositional races.
Social categories generally exist in dialectical contrast to other social categories. If we had no blacks, Amerindia, East of South Asians in America, then white wouldn’t be much of a social category except when traveling abroad.
I listened to the podcast interview of Ryu Chuck mentioned, and he doesnt sound like a wimp to me.
“I’m no more threatened by the average white than I am by the average Japanese person. Otherwise I would be loathe half my genetic content, my own grandfather, my roommates, 75% of my coworkers, half my friends and my own damn girlfriend.”
All of whom are safely deracinated, I presume. Sadly the moment one of them starts openly talking about his or her own ethnic interests as a white person, you start wetting your underwear thinking about American History X.
It’s funny how the more steadfast critics of WN in this thread keep ignoring the fact that, unlike Japanese nationalists, WNs and other advocates for white people are routinely demonized by the mainstream. Even Jared Taylor, for all of his efforts to distance himself from the Stormfront crowd, is stilled grouped in with skinheads and Klan members. Surely one can see that when such people, no matter how benign, are constantly harassed, subjected to witch hunts, marginalized, threatened with financial blackmail, belittled, etc. etc. for thinking in a way that’s encouraged among non-whites, they’re going to be far more resentful and angry.
Nikos,
When your ancestors came to the United States, they spoke a different language, practiced a different religion and stuck together. It is understandable the Anglo Saxon people already here were not overly accepting at first. You weren’t overly accepting of us either. As you have proven yourselves to be good citizens, Anglo Americans started to see you as Americans.
Exactly Doug. Anglo Americans didn’t make sure the Irish were second class citizens, they were happy to do that themselves.
I know, I was mocking the common semantic argument against “white nationalism” because there is no such thing as ‘white people’ as opposed to French and English people which are ‘real’, made by Spike and many others. I was also slightly drunk so I don’t know how clear that was.
Japan is meaningfully occupied by a foreign government, that control their domestic economic policies? Japan exists in the real world and is as “limited” economically as Germany is by the US. Both countries must kowtow to outsiders, or foreign cultural influence among their domestic population (probably much less true in Japan than any other US ally), but overwhelmingly both countries are run by the ethnic group that makes up the country in question. Japan isn’t meaningfully occupied by a foreign government.
Your premise here is that enemies must be ‘foreign’ as well, or that if they happen to share the same country of origin label then they are naturally part of one group which isn’t the case. The opinions of the people in charge of America are hostile to the majority population of the country they rule; which isn’t true of Japan, or is at least must less true. The Japanese people that rule Japan work to enforce a kind of self-reinforcing orthodoxy for the benefit of the entire group, which is almost the exact opposite of the ethic of the American ruling class, who are disproportionately not members of the majority ethnic group (which doesn’t even touch on the intra-white class divides, and intra-white ethnic divides which again is less an issue in Japan).
You could say in some hypothetical situation that if the USG was staffed top to bottom with mixed race Americans like Barack Obama whose worldview is dominated by petty identity politics, or likewise a disproportionate bulk of the nation’s wealth was controlled by people burdened with dual loyalties that yes Americans are technically in control of America, like Japanese are in control of Japan. That’s just semantics though. “American” unlike Japanese doesn’t mean anything significant. Anyone can be American, and it works just like when everyone gets to be special.
So maybe Japan does face some external pressures from those that rule America, but that foreign influence is felt even more strongly at home, and among America’s European ‘allies’. The pressure brought to bear by the American ruling class is just as “foreign” to most white Americans.
Lara,
As you have proven yourselves to be good citizens, Anglo Americans started to see you as Americans.
Again, this is not white nationalism, and has nothing to do with it.
What you wrote, while true, might as well be written by Dinesh D’Souza or Michelle Malkin*, as it is a point about assimilation, not white nationalism.
White Nationalism increasingly seems to be an ideology that is obsessed with hijacking other ideologies (American Exceptionalism, the manosphere, etc.).
*Both D’Souza and Malkin married white people, interestingly, and thus have mixed kids.
doug111,
I btw am not a white nationalist but am a race realist.
Me too. And there is a big difference between the two. The attempts by white nationalists to claim race realists as their own is getting tiresome, and is increasingly grating on people like myself and apparently Chuck.
I have two criteria :
1) Does a particular group commit violent crimes, and have a poor work ethic?
2) Are their women ugly, after adjusting for factors like poverty, etc.
By this metric, blacks are a problem group. Hispanics are borderline, but I am OK with Hispanics that work hard, are legal, and are perhaps one notch above the bottom in skill level. I have no problem with Asians, higher-skilled Hispanics, or Muslims who don’t seem to interested in jihad. As per Lara’s point, most Americans accept them as Americans if they do well, whether they are white or not.
The only races with ugly women are blacks (with the Ethiopian exception), native American/Mestizos (squat shape), and Austronesians.
i don’t know what is going on but i like kitties very much
also, sometimes extreme viewpoints are created when moderate ones are called “extreme” and pushed out of mainstream discourse which creates frustration
also, sometimes extreme viewpoints are necessary to shift teh overton window
also, kitties. or did i mention that already
Nikos–
I’m entirely empirical about Hispanics. If they did better in America in the second, third and fourth generation then I’d be fine letting them in consonant with our levels of unemployment and so on. However aside from the white Cubans, who do just fine or better than that after awhile, Mexican and Central American origin Hispanics, who especially among the illegals often have a whole lot of Amerindian blood and are not infrequently entirely or almost entirely Amerindian, actually drop out of high school at a higher rate than blacks. They on average net tax eater rather than net tax payers.
Colombian and Venezuelan girls who are mostly white but with a soupcon of the variety of Amerindians they have in those countries, can often be pretty damn hot to my taste. Let them in!!!
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Colombian and Venezuelan girls who are mostly white but with a soupcon of the variety of Amerindians they have in those countries, can often be pretty damn hot to my taste. Let them in!!!
Agreed. Once again, race realists are quite different from white nationalists.
I generally give white nationalists a pass because fanatics like them built this country and we’ll need them if push comes to shove. Quoting Razib and Sailer isn’t going to help you against an angry black mob, and people like Ryu are making an effort to better themselves, even if the Path is somewhat simplistic (America was founded by Puritans, we’re naturally a nation of cranks waiting for our big break.) We build mental habits of discipline in the things that do matter by building discipline in the things that don’t (always) matter.
And while every white person isn’t a white nationalist, I’d say around 99% are strong white-neighborhoodists. WNism is just extrapolating our loves, give them some of your own and they may find a way to do it more realistically.