A commenter at Roosh’s blog wrote:
I’m currently back home in North America for a trip home. Last night I was out with my former football team for some beers. They are all jumping at the chance to give the one female in the bar attention (the waitress). It never ceases to amaze me how men will make desperate attempts in North America to flirt with a waitress.
I live in London and rarely, if ever, see this.
The interaction? She’s ball busting and acting like “one of the boys”. The guys amp up the flirtation, while my d is now soft. This sort of foul mouthed behaviour from women is just no longer attractive to me. It’s hard to believe I even found it attractive at one time, and probably explains why I never found any girls worth more of my time. The sarcastic, man-like jokes and behaviour are just not attractive and wear off.
This comment hits on many different levels for me. First, Hooters (the most extreme example of this) or other similar establishments don’t yet exist in London or anywhere else in Europe. There is something idiosyncratic to America which compels American men to pay for flirtation.
About seven years ago I went into a Hooters with about six of my friends from back home. My tab came to about $15. This was right after I had started waiting tables myself so I left the waitress a $5 tip. Good percentage. But my normally cheap friends scrounged up about $100 between them to tip the waitress who performed the same routine for our table that she did for all the others. I vaguely recall the scene but I remember them counting out money among themselves. What was going on in this little circle jerk was that the waitresses tip was being ratcheted up and up as my friends’ sentiment fed off of each other. They did the whole “aw hell it’s just money” thing and ended up dropping a ridiculous amount of money for crappy service. If you break it down, they were competing with each other for space in the waitresses’ memory.
But why are American so much more pathetic in this regard compared to European men?
First, the norms surrounding American tipping are at play. Tipping has taken root here in America for a couple of reasons. It fits into the Americans’ meritocratic ethos, and it also allows employers to get customers to pay the wages of employees. As tipping has become rooted in the culture the acceptable tip percentage and the different kinds of service that are considered “tippable” have creeped northward. To maintain status, customers don’t want to be perceived as being cheap.
It only makes sense that female waitresses stand to gain the most in such a system which is one reason that women flock to bar and restaurant work. The existence of a tipping norm benefits waitresses who are able to leverage up that custom using the same old evolutionary triggers of provider males trading baubles for sex. The saddest part is that the sex part is usually out of the question, but the provider males are just hopeful and/or overconfident. Lots of men jumping through the same evolutionary hoops is a veritable gold mine for the waitress or female bartender. They are drawing from this giant evolutionary well and laughing all the way to the bank on Monday.
To my knowledge, Europe doesn’t have these same opportunities. Pubs are basically local men’s clubs. And discos are the more desegregated drinking spots which makes it less conducive to these giant flirt-offs.
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I’ve started to notice tip jars in drive thru windows. “they were competing with each other for space in the waitresses’ memory.” that’s actually something of a brilliant insight.
Ten percent pre-tax on beers from the bar is a good hard rule. How difficult is it to open a bottle of Summit? Ok, here is 45 cents. Those over-played 20-something servers and tenders appreciate the reality check.
The institution of tipping, What a mess. The whole restaurant experience can be the awful Disneyland trip in a compressed tortured hour. At least at a mall in the Midwest. Maybe in NYC there are Italian and Russian restaurants with “class”.
Imagine what would happen in this bastion of pseudo-chivalry if you decided — out of nowhere — to stand up and unexpectedly BITCH SLAP a waitress for no reason.
There would be a stampede of lard-asses trying to be chivalrous as you went running for the door.
I tease the gals that work in such situations, especially when there are no tip jars present or when the bar is empty of patrons, the tip jar is empty and they are standing around looking bored. I’ll toss them a penny and when they complain, I tell them to give it back and they never do. Funny thing is their faces always light up whenever they see me, they “play shame” me, and they even complain now when I don’t leave them that cent.
Germany has the FKK clubs.
Waitress: You don’t want bacon; I’ll surprise you.
(she turns and walks away)
George: Wow, is she not terrific?
Jerry: She does have a way.
George: You think she thinks I have a beautiful face, or is she just saying that?
Jerry: Well, they DO work on tips.
The reverse of the tipping customs as I feel to remorse is leaving a very small trip, not leaving a tip, or complaining if the service is really bad. I have always assumed that bad servers mentally write off bad tips as due to cheap people and never to their bad service.
I tip 15% every time, regardless of service. I wish we’d just get rid of the practice.
hahaha, my friend used to work at Hooters as a cook. I asked him, “is Hooters a restaurant pretending to be a stripper bar.”
He said, “Nah, more like a stripper bar pretending to be a restaurant.”
yeah, we all make fun of Advocatus Diaboli but at least he gets some bang for his buck. (Bad pun, made ya laugh though….)
The feminazi’s always said strip clubs are awful because they “objectify” women. Well, don’t they “objectify” men too as walking ATM machine’s? Granted these are all consenting adults so I shouldn’t judge….
Sounds like those guys that left the $100 tip at Hooters don’t get out much. If you go to Hooters (or strip clubs) a few times per month you quickly learn that it’s a waste to tip the chicks heavily – you’re not getting laid by them.
do American men no longer have respect for themselves relative to women? given all the nauseating fawning I read on facebook, i’d say no. this tipping crap is another example, especially egregious because hooters whores aren’t the type of women one should be seeking favor from.
i’ll take “Extreme Simping” for 200 alex.
I usually tip $1/drink, regardless of the gender of the bartender/waitperson. It’s not particularly painful for me and I do seem to get better service the next time I’m in the bar. I also pay attention to the male bartenders and bouncers, a few kind words go a long way with them, especially when there are also hot girls working there. In today’s world, having buddies is also a nice thing.
One fo Seinfeld’s finer episodes was the cleaning service woman that he slept with and the devolution that followed. “Let’s keep this sophisticated”. I like the memory space idea, and that’s a bit fo a daming statement on American men. have so many men given up on their chances fo sleepign with anyone remotely decent or feminine? I do think there’s a touch of the “if I pay enough, she’ll sleep with me” thought process in some men’s minds.
For those bringing up strip clubs or comparing Hooters to strip clubs, I’d say you have a greater chance of sleeping with a stripper than a waitress at Hooters or other sports bar. One has to consider the type of female that works each job, the amped up sexual atmosphere of the strip club, the drugs + alcohol present, and the “money for fun” mindframe already estabished. Damn, that paragraph felt very G Manifesto, but I think he’d agree.
A small erratum based on that font of absolute truth, Wikipedia: In addition to other continents, Hooters do exist in Europe, specifically in the Czech Republic, Germany, Switzerland, and the UK.
My own limited experience with London restaurants is that service tends to be lousy, and I wonder if it is because they take the US practice of paying sub-minimum and making it up with tips, but do so in an area with a lot of Continental patrons.
You’re quoting a commenter from Roosh’s blog, I think I know where this is going. It isn’t really the waitress’s job to turn him on, it is her job to bring his food. I think this guy moved to another country and he is visiting his friends back home. He probably has a bit of a superiority complex over it. Also, him saying he never found girls like this worth his time. My guess is maybe they were never into him, either, and it’s ego saving thing. Everyone does it.
I’ve found young, female servers are not usually the best, but most of them are okay for less expensive restaurants. I have noticed young, female bartenders aren’t very good. Middle aged men seem to be the best at that job.
Since local pubs are such a part of the culture of England and Ireland, I believe being a bartender is a respectable job. More established bars, in the United States, seem to employ older men as bartenders. It is these fly by night places which don’t seem to have high standards.
Japan is about to get a Hooters, but the tipping culture doesn’t exist in Japan (though some restaurants will add a 10% service charge, and traditional Japanese restaurants have a “seating charge” of a few hundred yen). Should be interesting to see how it goes.
What if a drunk patron needs to be cut off? Do you really think a girl is going to be able to handle that?
Strippers? waitresses? just shark-shock ‘em!
Lollz, “Shark-Shock” (verb) is by far my favorite as far as PUA lingo goes.
And my favorite rock song, you ask? It woudl be THIS ONE, great for both air guitarin’ and smashing shit kind offun mood.
I’ve only been to a hooters once or twice in my life. I went just because if was a talked about social phenomenon. Tipped average or below average 15%. Did a bit of flirting but wasn’t try hard. So she tried hard.
I hate to feel a chump.
I tip what used to be the standard 15%. Maybe more if it’s a small check and I’m there awhile. If it’s an expensive restaurant (and not on an expense account) I subtract the wine from the amount I’m tipping on, or mostly do. I think that involves minimal work for the extra cost, and the restaurant is making ridiculous margins on it’s wine. Restaurants that serve a lot of wine can pay their waiters more to make up the diff so far as I’m concerned.
I don’t believe in not tipping traditionally tipped service workers, but I also don’t believe in throwing money around, esp. to pretty girls.
I was reading something recently about the “breastaurant” sector, various other chains looking for the Hooters crowd. If you are going to give money to a woman to talk to you you should at least go to a strip club.
Lara–
That’s not true at a Hooters. It’s a semi strip club. It’s definitely the waitresses job, for which they get high tips on average, to flirt with guys they think might respond generously.
In general waiter’s and waitress’s jobs are to some extend to act deferential in addition to taking and efficiently fulfilling food and drink orders, particularly in higher end restaurants. There’s some element of the waitstaff acting as butlers/serving girls. A whiff of that. That’s part of what the tradition of tipping is about.
BTW, is tipping customary in Britain? I’ve been there a bunch but not at all recently, and can’t remember. In France and French Switzerland there’s a 17.5% “service compris” charge tacked onto the food expense as a mandatory tip — which does tend to produce worse waitstaff service. Believe it’s the same in Germany, Italy and Spain, if memory serves. Been awhile. Sweden too. Seems a continental Europe thing, though the exact percentage probably varies a bit.
Raybury–
There are a lot of hot girls in the Czech Rep.
Tilted Kilt is another Brestaurant chain coming soon to a town near you.
It is not clear what role it is servers have. Is it just take your order, bring your food, or is there more. It was the early 80s or so when Fridays came on the scene, with their servers all flaired up, coming on strong, first name introductions. All the sudden you got a new best friend! Good times. This was well lampooned by Jennifer Anniston in Office Space. She did not have enough flair (but enough flare!), and they had to let her go. So much for integrity.
And let’s face it: That was cool for awhile. It is hard to believe now, but going to Fridays was fun and the service was a big part of it. So some people, customers more than servers, especially here in flyover country where going to the Mall is an event, still have that expectation.
In high class restaurants, different standards and expectations. The service knows better than to bother the patrons.
The confusion comes out in places that are trying to be. Trying to be cool hip trendy edgy sexy. But so often it is a theme based on market research. Sexy waitstaff are part of the package. And then we have people wanting sexy company, and willing to pay for it. Ultimately an unsatisfying arrangement.
In the UK, if you tip 10%, it’s fine. British servers are paid higher than US servers. Bartenders do NOT need to be tipped, but if you do tip them you’ll be treated very well and the Brits will have a laugh.
In my early twenties I bounced at a strip club. Do not expect to sleep with the dancers based on money. Wanna sleep with a stripper? Be there often enough to be familiar but not a creep act indifferent and play pool or some shit. Tip if you are in the dance area or stage but not a lot. Under no circumstances go to friend zone and start picking them up meals or bringing them shit they will use the hell out of you.
Strippers are used to being told they are beautiful. Don’t be mean but try not to compliment them to much a little criticism will actually get their gears going but come on to hard you are a dick and they will hate you.
Honestly it is not worth the trouble. Like most women they sleep with who is around them and know them. This means Bouncers, Bartenders, Bar Backs, hell even Bus boys get to fuck the strippers anyone working there has a much better chance than a patron.
Oh, P.S. disregard if you are a pro athlete, rock star, etc. or are super rich and throw hundreds at them. Who the fuck wouldn’t cave for that?
Tipping is a barbarous custom in my opinion. Its better to just pay them a bit more upfront. However being in the US I still tip 10 (for poor) 15 most times and 20 if I am happy or whatever the local custom is. Servers got to live too.
As for Hooters is well tolerable food and the girls are cute so longa s they look like women and not like teens but at the risk of having my MRA membership revoked I find the entire “girl pretends to like you” as part of her job disgusting. I know its fake, they u know its fake why the heck would I want to waste extra money on it. Its also noisy and obnoxious to go there especially when dimwitted parents take their kids have their very young daughters made honorary Hooters girls. Puke.
I feel about the same with strip clubs, they are just annoying wastes of money .Since I doubt I could get some stripper tail and even if I could I’d rather not take a ride on the drama llama anyway, I’d rather not spend the bucks. Naked chicks are all over the Internet and while they are not as good as in person they are free and on my time. .
To restaurants you frequent you should tip and generously or you might find yourself eating or drinking something you don’t know about. I always tip and a little over 15 percent sometimes a lot over. I never complain about service. I just never go back there if I am given bad service. If the food is not how I like it I just don’t eat it. After all I can cook for myself.
Charles,
You left the waitress a 33% tip for ‘crappy service’? At Hooters?!
WTF?! LOL
It appears the only guy competing for space in her memory was you.
Anyway, fretting over tip amounts is so beta.
Fogey,
you comment makes zero sense. if you’re going to come at me, please try harder.
I think it’s grand piggy can remember incredible detail from a trip to Hooter’s seven long years ago. Photographic memory is an invaluable skill to a journalist.
Charles,
You make it too easy.
By your own account you left a 33% tip for ‘crappy service’ at Hooters.
Did you at least get her number?!
“You left the waitress a 33% tip for ‘crappy service’? At Hooters?!”
“Anyway, fretting over tip amounts is so beta.”
Um…
LBF, C.R, is right.
Anyway, being socially graceful is full bore Alpha and not everyone has the automatic innate ability to do this. A little private study or fretting is very much part of being a higher beta or becoming Alpha. And yes if you are a blogger who teaches, that counts too.
A 33% tip for ‘crappy service’ at Hooters from a smug chap who fancies himself outside the ‘circle jerk’ of guys competing “for space in the waitresses’ memory”.
LOL! You can’t make this stuff up.
‘Pathetic’, is right.
Fogey,
Since you clearly can’t read critically, I’ll point something out to you. I mention that this incident took place soon after I began waiting tables, “so”, I write, I left her a good tip, percentage wise.
That’s something that servers do for other servers. If you work in the industry it’s a fraternal type thing. But there are limits. Dropping $20 (as all of my friends did) despite not being in the industry is a completely different thing. I didn’t think I’d have to walk anyone through this, but I forgot that there are dimwits like you and Firepower who spend countless hours each day combing over every fine point in my posts.
Charles,
Ah, yes, I forgot you were a fully signed-up member of the Most Sacred Guild of Aproned Waitstaff.
I’m sure she remembers you fondly.
That’s all you’ve got Fogey? You’re an embarrassment to the troll community.
“(tipping)… also allows employers to get customers to pay the wages of employees”
Um, I’m not Adam Smith, but it seems me that customers are always going to pay the wages of employees, one way or the other. I’ve lived in both tipping and non-tipping cultures.
Hahaha, “troll community”!
Pubs haven’t been “basically local men’s clubs” for a long time now…