This is a re-post of an article from new blogger Matt Forney that originally appeared at In Mala Fide.
When my article “The Problem with the Men’s Rights Movement” was originally published at In Mala Fide last month, I left this insult for a commenter who responded to my post by torching a bunch of strawmen:
Awww, did baby make a poo-poo? You want a fresh diaper and some milk?
He came back at me with this:
Do you think female shaming language works with me? Nice try. Try using your brain next time.
Ah, “shaming language.” Now there’s a phrase that’s been bandied about to the point of meaninglessness. What is shaming language? Here’s a good definition:
“Shaming tactics.” This phrase is familiar to many Men’s Rights Activists. It conjures up the histrionic behavior of female detractors who refuse to argue their points with logic. Yet women are not the only ones guilty of using shaming tactics against men. Male gynocentrists use them, too.
Shaming tactics are emotional devices meant to play on a man’s insecurities and shut down debate. They are meant to elicit sympathy for women and to demonize men who ask hard questions. Most, if not all, shaming tactics are basically ad homimem attacks.
“Shaming language” or “shaming tactics” is to MRA blogs what “trigger warnings” are to feminist ones; you can’t go ten seconds without it being shoved in your face. And I’m really sick of hearing about them. Identifying shaming tactics once served as a noble purpose; shooting down feminist debate fallacies. Now, a growing percentage of “MRAs” use the Catalogue to deflect any criticism of their behavior.
It’s like a little kid who taunts and insults other kids, then runs and hides behind his mom’s skirt when they get mad. “Mommy, they’re gonna hit me!”
A certain amount of shaming is necessary for society to function. Just because feminists and traditionalists abuse shaming in their attempts to manipulate men doesn’t mean that all shaming is bad. The three fundamental questions you have to ask yourself when you’re getting shamed are:
- Is my behavior actually shameful?
- Does the shamer stand to gain in some way from successfully shaming me?
- Is the shamer justified in wanting those gains?
For example, male-dominated groups (or “gangs,” as Jack Donovan might call them) like sports teams are notorious for shaming their underperforming members. I wasn’t an athletic kid, but I know how football teams and the like work; if you aren’t playing up to speed, your comrades and your coach will berate you and attack your masculinity, maybe call you a pussy. The same thing happens in the military. The emotionally fragile react to such japes by getting defensive: “Stop making fun of me!”
But why should they? It’s a cliche, but it’s the truth: a team is only as strong as its weakest member. Your teammates aren’t shaming you because they’re cruel assholes, they’re shaming you because they need you to pull it together. If you’re on a football team and consistently fumble the ball, you could end up losing the game for your team. If you’re in an Army platoon and you screw up, you could end up getting your comrades wounded or killed by the enemy. Therefore, in these contexts, shaming isn’t just a good thing, it’s necessary to keep the group together and ensure it accomplishes its goals.
Plenty of writers have made the observation that MRAs are identical to feminists, only with the sexes swapped. Unfortunately, when you look at how both groups react to shaming, you see a lot of similarities. Feminists love to campaign against social shaming that disadvantages women in any way, whether it’s fat-shaming, slut-shaming or prude-shaming. “Fat acceptance” advocates like Kate Harding have to twist and contort logic to ridiculous degrees so they can keep denying the truth that yes, being overweight is bad for your health, your social life, and your state of mind.
We shame fat people for justifiable reasons: they’re disgusting to look at, unpleasant to be around and hurting their loved ones by being cavalier about their health. We shame slutty girls (well, not me; I personally love sluts) because they’re generally dirty, impulsive and incapable of fidelity. Feminists hate shaming because it presupposes judgement, something we’re absolutely positively not supposed to do. No matter how stupid, offensive or flat-out repulsive someone is, we’re constantly told that we can’t “judge” them (unless they’re white, Christian and/or a conservative, then it’s weapons free).
That’s the cry of the liberal, the feminist and the MRA: “Don’t judge me!“
Don’t judge me… even if I weigh 400 pounds.
Don’t judge me… even if I live in my parents’ basement.
Don’t judge me… even if I’m a 30-year old virgin.
Don’t judge me… even if I’m a creepy weirdo.
They can’t play the game, so they want to throw out the rulebook, fuming like Eric Cartman when they don’t get their way.
Just to clarify again for the slow: I am not some Bill Bennett-type trying to shame men into “manning up” and marrying when the deck is stacked against them. There is good shaming and there is bad shaming. If you’re being shamed, take a step back and ask yourself whether you deserve it. If not, tell the shamer to go fuck themselves. If yes, stop behaving shamefully. You’re not doing anyone a favor, least of all yourself, when you persist in being a loser.
And if you talk like a woman, don’t get pissy when I treat you like one.
For more from Matt Forney, visit his blog, follow him on Twitter and friend him on Facebook.
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I didn’t read all of your post bu whoever wrote this: Awww, did baby make a poo-poo? You want a fresh diaper and some milk?
Is a fag. Guaranteed.
The problem with shaming is that it doesn’t work. If you shame a person enough they start ignoring you and in a free society there is nothing you can do about it. Why should they care about your opinion?
If you give a crap about something, its almost always better to say “how can we do better?” If you have weak link of the team he won’t get better by calling him “a pussy”. He’ll get better if you figure out what he is doing wrong and help him to do better. If you just abuse him, he’ll stop caring.
This does not mean you can’t be strong with someone or you can never hurt someone else’s feelings, sometimes you have to do that, but it does require you to know what you are talking about and care about that person’s life enough for them to respect your opinion.
Nothing is worse than a moron screaming at you to make you want to do the opposite.
Screwed up that last sentence.
“Nothing will make you want to do the opposite more than some moron screaming at you.”
Wow… i must say, you are now saying that stating arguments you don’t like is a justification to usign shaming tactics ?
Arguments, opinions and facts that are not directed at you, but directed to your idea are no reason to use shaming tactics, but your primary attack was meant to insult and was probably you venting a little.
That’s what MRAs doesn’t respect, instead of trying to justify yourself, maybe you should take a pause and reflect. I’m not attacking you now… I am saying that in a very respectfull way.
Thank you for your time.
Shaming works on women because they actually identify themselves with:
1. the female “herd”
2. Desirable men
and will do anything to get into their good graces if they feel that status is threatened.
By and large, though, you can’t identify and catalog the enormous destructive impact of female choices and attitudes and then shame men for not catering to their wishes. Shall I castigate the 400-pound basement-dwelleing virgin for not getting a job in Faggot Studies and marrying the bony STD-ridden feminist slut? Will their coming together accomplish anything but greater societal dissolution?
Besides, those standards are fucked. Black men by and large avoid most of them due to lucky accidents of biology, and they’re the greatest danger to a functional society by a large margin. You want innately sexy men without problems with feminism, move to Africa, where the results of unrestricted female choice rules the landscape.
You are essentially saying that ‘shaming language’ is the same as an ad hominem, which it clearly isn’t at all. I think originally that was the case, but the post is correct about the way many if not most MRAs use the term. It is exactly the same as the ‘non-judgmentalism’ of feminism and the left in general.
Not to mention ad hominem is actually not a fallacy itself if it can be used to demonstrate the interest of the arguer in the argument.
You can castigate all you want, but they aren’t going to listen and change unless they know you and respect you.
If you can handle shaming language from your mother, then you should be able to handle it from anyone.
hahahaha,
This is what a debate between Matt Forney and David Fatrelle would look like:
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WHY in the hell
would you give shit
what some mra thinks
“This is what a debate between Matt Forney and David Fatrelle would look like!”
Good stuff.
I sip on my Gin & Tonic
And reflect more upon it:
Those with no shame
Are those with good Game.
Ok, what do you prefer to call responses that consist of snark and ad-hominem attacks (you just hate women, etc)
albert magnus 06/23/2012 at 10:03 am
“You can castigate all you want, but they aren’t going to listen and change unless they know you
and respect you.”
Which works in that example given of a football team. But you are just splitting hairs.
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I agree with a lot of things in this article, except for the last part. You seem to beleive you have the right to distinguish the line between ‘just’ and ‘unjust’ shaming and then call it ‘judging’ and then claim not to tell men to ‘man up’.
Seriously: don’t judge. It’s not you fucking bussiness how other people live their lives or how they look. Just fuck off.
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