An article in Esquire written by Stephen Marche has enraged a few feminists (one of them, Marcotte, refused to link to the piece so nanny-nanny-boo-boo, I won’t link to you…either). Marche discusses “the sneer, the female gaze of contempt” while also dismissing the entire discussion being led by Hanna Rosin et al on the crisis of masculinity. Though I don’t know if feminists picked up on Marche’s nuance, he argues that the entire notion of a crisis of masculinity is a function of this gaze of contempt. And this contempt entrenches itself in our everyday romantic relationships because men just passively accept whatever it is that women think or say about them.
Marche cites Michelle Obama’s tendency of belittling Barack, though Marche forgets to bolster his claim by mentioning that the President has routinely publicly denigrated himself for cheap laughs, playing into the crowd’s tacit acceptance of female moral superiority. Of course, Obama is top dog, so maybe he can afford, unlike most guys, to blow a little alpha capital.
Marche also mentions Louis CK’s brand of humor which has trended towards beta supplication over the years. Marche says “the best and most refined comedians of the moment all take it for granted that the masculine is inherently the stupid, the obese, the miserable, the lazy, the selfish.” All this is done for the approval of women, Marche argues.
It’s interesting that Marche mentions CK because last night’s episode of “Louie” has a scene in which the comedian is coaxed into a shopping trip with a woman he’d last encountered after her meltdown during an S&M session. She wanted him to spank her before having sex, and she ended up sobbing into the bed comforter while Louie looked on in horror. But because the woman offers him a blowjob, Louie goes with. In the store, an IKEA, she asks Louie whether he likes a certain rug. Louie doesn’t care; he says it looks “fine.” She berates him, telling him that he doesn’t contribute and that he’s an idiot, etc. Louie comforts her because, what else is he going to do?
But the scene works because we do recognize that there is an enthusiasm gender gap. Men just don’t care about rugs. Louie says that it isn’t covered with AIDS which means that it’s good enough for him. No rug will ever “make me cum”, he says. What is there to get excited about? And why must his excitement meet her excitement?
I enjoyed this scene because it reminds me of almost every single domestic/household decision I’ve ever had to make with my girlfriends – past and present. I just don’t care about what color we should make the bathroom. I don’t care, just pick one. And because of this – because I don’t care at all about these mundane, day-to-day decisions – I feel the contempt. She’s staring darts through me. The only thing I can say for myself is that I address this for what it is. I put a name on it and tell the woman that I am never going to get excited about such things and that it is impractical and cruel to ask me to ramp up my enthusiasm just to make her feel happy. That kinda works, but there is always that nagging feeling that I should take a more active interest in these things that I don’t care about. That nagging pressure is the thing that Marche is talking about.
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The things you do not care about, the more things the woman has to decide. Do you really think it makes you look like an alpha where your girlfriend decide which restaurant you are going to visit?
The flip side of not caring is that if you do not care, then you do not get to complain. How many men claim they do not care but then complain about the decision after it is made. If you really want to alienate women, complain about anything you claim to not care about.
When a woman drags you to a store to buy rugs, paint, or any other kind of decor, you shouldn’t have no opinion. You need to have strong opinions, and make fun of the colors she chooses while insisting on the colors you like that she hates.
Using this method, you will never be asked to come to a store to pick out decor ever again.
In the last paragraph, she’s got the look of contempt because you’re accepting her frame. So don’t do that. TFG has an excellent suggestion. If you’re there, take charge and turn it into a game that’s fun for you.
If she’s just dragging you along and you just don’t want to be there, she’ll feel like you’re her child. That’s not a turn-on for women.
Is Louis CK really a beta, or is he just playing a role that most American men can ruefully relate to?
Yeah, but just because Obama makes those jokes about Michelle being “superior” to him doesn’t mean that he actually believes it. You gotta give Obama some credit for his sacrifice – giving up white women and getting with the mammoth Michelle for the sake of his career.
We all know that he only got with Michelle because of his long-term goal of running for President – there’s very little evidence that he was ever involved with black women before Michelle, and he’d certainly be with a white woman now if not for those political aspirations.
I can’t picture Obama with a hot wife, period. He seems like the type to like somewhat nerdy women.
I edited and took out the part about food. I do care about food. That was a bad example on my part. But domestic decisions like the one Louis CK was asked to make – I will never care about and I will never bitch about it in the future either. In those situations where her enthusiasm for something is high and mine can not meet that level, there can be contempt. I typically handle it by not going to the store which can lead to other arguments about my not caring. But I take a love it or leave it approach. I’m not going to fake enthusiasm for this task that I don’t care about. And turning it into a game is to play into that frame as well.
A man should never, ever go shopping with a woman.
“I just don’t care about what color we should make the bathroom. I don’t care, just pick one”
Interesting article and this is a tough one. Especially when it’s about things you just couldn’t care less about, as you say. I prefer to let other people, including girls, do the legwork, and let them bring the final decision for me to make. That way they feel I’m still invested.
Yeah not giving zero any credit for that, he would be with an ugly, masculine, domineering white possibly jewish woman instead.
It is a tough situation though when your gf asks you to make a decision on something that you don’t care about at all. They want to be told what to do 100% of the time. It’s frustrating.
….men are doomed, in this argument, by their own inherent natures to flounder in the emotionally complex, predominantly social postindustrial world.
Hmmm, they must mean the very world that men invented by their own innovations in technology. They always leave that part out, though. Wish there was a way to post this comment under the actual article.
Marche seconds the contempt wholeheartedly- “There are always going to be stupid men in the world, but the ignorant and insensitive, the uninterested and uncaring, will have no place in it. I suppose I should feel compassion, or some kind of weird gender loyalty, for the guys who can’t figure this out. In all honesty, I don’t. There is no masculinity crisis.”
Read more: http://www.esquire.com/features/thousand-words-on-culture/contempt-of-women-0912#ixzz239VswY6V
The ignorant, insensitive, uninterested and uncaring need jobs and housing too. Leftism has always been about really nasty hate for large groups of people- first the rich, or even the modestly well off, and in its modern version working class whites.
When shopping with a woman all you have to do is say “no” the first 2 or 3 times they ask you if you like a particular blouse or pair of shorts, etc. etc. Then after the 4th or 5th time say “yeah, I like that one” and quickly thing of some BS reason to support that choice on the fly.
Women are naturally indecisive and want to feel like you’re attendant on things that are important to them.
Owen Cook from RSD talks about this mismatched ‘energy level’ as specifically a shit test basically. The friendly version of the bitch shield. His example is the gaggle of youngish girls in a circle cackling and bouncing at things that can’t possibly be that exciting or funny. That women even in this setting will ramp up their enthusiasm and you either have to out-enthuse them or defuse the ticking time bomb that is the female potential for being foolishly excited about nothing.
Basically female enthusiasm is a route towards female scorn, because you haven’t managed their emotions for them, which they refuse to do for themselves, and deliberately get out of control to test you. The overly enthusiastic female is just the more innocuous and socially acceptable version of a woman playing a game of ‘Let’s you and him fight’, or becoming physically violent with a man in the hopes that he’ll beat (and presumably rape) her.
My advice would be to tell your girlfriend to pull up pictures on the computer, or bring home paint samples. That way, giving your opinion only takes a few minutes, rather than a few hours.
thrasy:
i read it as Marche not so much seconding the contempt as accepting that men will make their own choices that they have to live with and that talking about their shortcomings as some sort of crisis is a form of contempt in and of itself. it’s the duality of pity and contempt or hatred.
the last part of the scene where Louie is shopping with the woman shows the two driving back from the store in a large van. the crazy woman basically is just wanting Louie to second her decision to buy a certain piece of furniture rather than another. Louie seems to first think about giving his opinion on the question but then he stops and just caters to her by telling her that she made a good decision. it’s the “Yes Dear” mentality. many women are insecure in this way and want men to tell them that they’re doing it right. and if you aren’t there to back them they get frustrated and contemptuous.
Not caring about what colour to paint the living room, or what style of Persian rug to buy, is the attitude of a powerless little boy whose parents (or wife, or Corporate America, or…) make all the decisions for him.
You need to have an opinion. Educate yourself. Take a stand.
If Louie wasn’t paying for it and it wasn’t going in his house, he probably didn’t care what she bought.
LBF,
nah. i don’t care to take a stand. i don’t give a fuck. that’s a function of me being someone, like many men, who don’t care that much about material items or decorations or any of those things. i don’t identify through such things because i’m not a weak bitch like you seem to be.
nah. i don’t care to take a stand. i don’t give a fuck. that’s a function of me being someone, like many men, who don’t care that much about material items or decorations or any of those things.
Yeah, no joke. Anyone with actual experience with women knows that you’ve got to humor and indulge their materialistic/hsopping foibles from time to time.
I guess if you’re not around women much you may think it’s a great idea to argue and “take a stand” over inconsequential things.
I think LBF has a valid point. It is your house and partially your money. I would tell my girlfriend I am not going shopping with her, since I don’t enjoy it and it takes up too much of my free time. However, tell her to put all her decorating ideas in a portfolio, with paint chips, material samples, measurements, and prices. Give her about 15 minutes of your time. A few minutes upfront could save you a major headache in the long run, such as having to repaint an entire room or return custom made furniture.
Also, I would double check any important measurements she made.
I’ve allowed myself to be distracted from the main point here. It doesn’t really matter about how much say-so I give in domestic matters…the point is that when it’s something that the woman cares about more than the man, there is a certain amount of contempt that is expressed by the woman. It is backed up by the underlying belief that men are always in the wrong – immoral, lazy, selfish. On the other hand, there are few situations where a man complains to or derides the woman for not being enthusiastic enough or not being a joyful participant in whatever it is that he’s interested in. Men are laissez-faire; women are totalitarian.
It’s pretty much the exact opposite. Men who don’t develop tastes for persian rugs and become amateur interior decorators (and don’t always buy the newest video game console, or expensive toys like wave runners and ATVs, et cetera, et cetera) that are refusing their wife and “Corporate America” and the incessant push to become a consumerist shopaholic.
Being overly concerned with material things isn’t a sign of manhood.
Cappy Cap has addressed this “not care” issue pretty well in regards to domestic responsibilities. Why should men have to clean the house up to women’s standards of cleanliness when most men just do not give a shit? It’s pretty accepted that what the women wants is “right” and you’re a jerk if you don’t live up to some stupid standard.
Kyle,
Fogey’s blog is dedicated to extolling the virtues of the tassled loafer and other such classic styles. To him that’s some sort of expression of freedom or masculinity just because it’s retrograde and iconoclastic compared to the modern relaxed fit look. It’s not that at all. It’s conformity to something that people used to conform to. But Fogey’s dressing it up behind a bunch of rhetoric in order to trick himself into thinking that he’s a maverick.
The part that resonated w/ me: she got Louie to the point where he didn’t even want a blowjob from her. She manipulated him into helping her but made it so uncomfortable for him that he just wanted to leave..but she got what she wanted in the end and Louie basically got nothing. How many times has a woman made you jump through hoops just to get a piece, then while you’re fucking them you’re not even really enjoying it that much.. I mean, you’re dick is enjoying it, but you’re also thinking “was this worth all the bullshit I had to put up with to get to the point?” That’s the advantage of getting older, into your 40′s like Louie: you will only jump through so many hoops before you end up just saying fuck it, I’ll jack off instead of dealing with this crazy bitch. But again, just the promise of a “free blowjob” was enough to manipulate him into wasting the day at IKEA with a psycho.
A lot of black men wear stylish clothes, and they aren’t lacking for female companionship.
Try:
I’ll fake enthusiasm about this if when we’re, say, buying a car you fake enthusiasm when I try to discuss with you if we should get to 2.5 liter or the 3.5; when we’re buying a TV we go for the LED or the LCD” etc etc.
Donny,
great point. and, yes, i’ve been in situations like that. women often manipulate the protective instinct of men and they do so by saying, as the crazy chick in Louie did, “if you wanted to offer to help me I’d give you a blow job.” he could resist but then she’d act vulnerable and crazy and he’d feel bad. it is almost never the case that women do something for men because they feel bad for men. i’m not saying they should; just saying that men shouldn’t do it either.
honestly, if your girl is giving you a contemptuous sneer because you aren’t gaily effusing about throw rug patterns with her, there’s something wrong with your relationship (hint: excessive betaness) that goes deeper than her superficial frustration with your normal and expected male disinterest in her peculiarly female hobbies.
these are examples to fit in with the show and to highlight what the Esquire author was saying. my gf no longer expects me to care bout rug patterns. she might have tried at one point but became frustrated when she knew i didn’t care. that has less to do with any of my behavior than it does with her expectations of me.
the biggest one is household chores. i am utilitarian. i like tidiness but not obsessive cleanliness. i don’t have shit laying around but i also don’t spitshine the bathroom mirror every other day. in my relationship there is a difference here, and also an enthusiasm gap. the current underlying the conversation/discussion which sometimes becomes more intense is that she’s doing it the right way and i’m doing it the wrong way. this is the general framework for the type of disagreement i’m talking about. whatever realm it is in, it is women who are pushing their men towards caring more, showing more enthusiasm, doing a certain task that they would like us to do. it’s a massive shit-test and every woman will try to pull it at some point or another in a relationship. it’s in their DNA. the man who hasn’t experienced this is either so alpha as to be a freak of nature or hasn’t been in a relationship much past the halo period.
Yeah I don’t think I’ve ever known anyone *that* alpha.
Y’all know that’s a TV show, right?
If you’re letting a chick compel you to do things by dangling a blowjob carrot stick in front of you that says as much about you as it does her…
“whatever realm it is in, it is women who are pushing their men towards caring more, showing more enthusiasm, doing a certain task that they would like us to do. it’s a massive shit-test and every woman will try to pull it at some point or another in a relationship. it’s in their DNA.”
no doubt. this constant pushing by women of their men to ever-greater [X] is hard-wired into the female brain. it all comes back to hypergamy. even when a woman has chosen you (or settled for you) she still feels a natural, cosmically ancient compulsion to push you to new heights of whatever bug is up her ass — cleanliness, promotions, home renovations, cunnilingus, etc — because as is the wont of their constitutionally unsatisfiable sex, women feel their most desirous, and feel their most desirable, when in the company of a man who is higher status than herself and other men. this competitive instinct even extends beyond her man to other women, revealed most crassly in the landscaping wars that suburban moms will get into with each other for the most manicured lawn on the block.
having said that, this womanly compulsion rarely descends into outright sneering contempt for their men, unless those men bend over backwards to please their women and generally act like sniveling betaboys. most any woman who is in a relationship with a man she loves and respects will pull up short of contempt for his disinterest in her “raison du jours”, happy to allow her frustration a safe outlet through sarcasm or playful disapproval. relationship game is all about managing and redirecting this lifelong hypergamous expression in women.
fyi, the female equivalent of relationship game is managing and fulfilling the lifelong male preference for sexiness, fuckability and femininity. now age can’t be stopped, but smart women know how to extend their value by staying slender and feminine.
I don’t think Chuck is beta. I just think he should be proactive in dealing with his girlfriend, rather than reactive. Take the initiative to do things you know she enjoys or asking her about things she is interested in. Then, when you really want to be left alone or don’t want to go somewhere with her, you won’t feel guilty saying no.
You’ve got an odd fondness for Louis C.K. I’ve always seen him as SWPL God Comic. He’s only non-pc in a way that somehow cuts against white people or males or white males. He gets away with making jokes out of… things you can already say in polite company. Compare to Tosh, who is the polar opposite of that.
“You’ve got an odd fondness for Louis C.K.”
It’s a ginger thing, you wouldn’t understand.
It’s perfectly clear that you don’t give a fuck.
That’s the problem with little American boys like you.
You lack substance, favouring, instead, the pose of the pissed-off adolescent.
Lara wrote:
“Also, I would double check any important measurements she made.”
LOL!! Classic. Definitely.
holy shit this guy is being dramatic. chill the fuck out man. if you think drapes are “substance” then you’re further down the hole than i thought.
“And why must his excitement meet her excitement”… Well said. It’d be interesting to know the answer. I think the alpha/beta crowd consider it just some sort of test. It could be they want to feel their opinion is right be hearing someone else say it for them… Don’t know. Strange thing though. It’s a real phenomenon.
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