Now the discussion over whether or not “Baby, It’s Cold Outside” is a date-rape anthem has hit Salon and The Atlantic. It’s moving up the chain of command and will probably be discussed on NPR and written about in the New York Times at some point which means that we’re about five years out from its complete removal from the radio.
“BICO” is a song written by Frank Loesser. It was originally performed by Loesser and his wife at social gatherings before being picked up for the 1949 movie Neptune’s Daughter. The song has two characters – a wolf character and a mouse character – engaged in lyrical conversation. Interpreters who see date rape in the lyrics see the wolf and mouse roles as indicators that the song is inherently predatory. After a few drinks together in the wolf’s den, the wolf tries to convince the mouse to stay a little bit longer. The most heavily criticized lyrics in the song are when, after ongoing pressure from the wolf, the mouse says “I said no” and asks “What’s in this drink?”
In his Salon piece titled “Is ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside’ a date-rape anthem?” Stephen Deusner writes:
If we have to hear the Mouse make the same mistake every year, even when it’s not all that cold outside, here’s a humble suggestion: Switch the parts. Have the woman play the Wolf and the man play the Mouse. Or have two men or two women sing the song. Play around with the gender roles and sexual orientations. Find new ways to stage this disturbing little playlet. It might not make for the definitive version of the song, but at least it would give a new twist to the drama and might make “Baby, It’s Cold Outside” somewhat bearable again. Probably not.
Except…in Neptune’s Daughter, the song (which won an Oscar) is performed twice, once with a male Wolf/female Mouse (Ricardo Montalban/Esther Williams) and once with a female Wolf/male Mouse (Betty Garret/Red Skelton). The TV show Glee also has a same-sex performance of the song. So Deusner either didn’t do his research or just really wants to stick the point that the song is “rapey”.
Neither Deusner nor any other commentators consider the context of these scenes within the movie or the specific delivery of the song on the screen or as a radio hit. Which is the official version? When you watch the performance in the movie you see the physical interaction between the two sets of wolves/mice. Montalban’s character acts much more aggressive in the movie than Johnny Mercer sounds in the classic radio version. And that’s the version that is most widely known. Even then, Montalban’s performance of the song still does not meet the date rape threshold mainly because intercourse is never shown to occur.
Most critics of the song focus on the line “what’s in this drink?”. Rohypnol didn’t exist until the 1970s. It’s closest relative would have been the Mickey Finn which was first used at the turn of the 20th century. But there are no cultural or historical references to the Mickey being used to incapacitate women for the purposes of sex. The established interpretation of that line fits with the common cultural trope seen in movies of the era. The drink serves as a scapegoat which allows someone to rationalize behavior they may not otherwise choose.
We don’t know what happens between them within the context of the song. Does she stay or go? Even if the mouse does stay and has sex with the wolf, this is no form of rape. It is caving to high-pressure sales/seduction tactics which is an entirely different category than rape.
Which leads us to something else.
Loesser had another song that hasn’t been mentioned by anyone discussing BICO. The song is interesting for its juxtaposition of classic seduction and the “seduction” carried out by door-to-door salesmen. In his 1941 song “I Said No” (performed beautifully by Alvino Rey), we are led to believe that a woman is once again resisting a man’s sexual advances.
I said “No!”, he said “Please!”,
I said “No!”, he said “Please!”,
I said “No!”, he said “Please, pretty baby!”,
I said “No!”, he said “Why?”,
I said “No!”, he said “Why?”,
I said “No!”, he said “Try!”,
I said “Maybe!”
But the twist of the song comes at the end:
He said “Now?”, I said “Well!”,
He said “Ah, this is swell,
And you’ll never know how much it will mean;
So at last, confess!”,
I said “Yes yes yes yes yes!”,
That’s how I subscribed to Liberty magazine!
A man peddling Liberty magazine subscriptions being compared to a man (or sometimes a woman) peddling sex. Complaints that the scenes in BICO are high-pressure seduction tactics aren’t completely off the mark. At some point even the biggest supporters of seduction would say “enough”. But if a man convinces a woman to change her mind and stay and perhaps make out or even have sex, is that date rape? No. An intellectually honest discussion of either of these songs by Loesser would investigate the question of why men so often believe that women are always secretly yearning to say “Yes”.
Historical and cultural context is important here too. In a more conservative era, a “no” would be more likely to be fraught with social pressure. The mouse in BICO claims that neighbors and parents and siblings are reasons for not staying longer. If we take those explanatory lyrics at face value and not just as convenient excuses then we could see that the wolf is trying to convince the mouse to let down her/his social inhibitions. Never does the mouse say “No, I don’t want to.” Want is perhaps assumed, and now it’s a matter of discussing payment options. Contrast a 1949 “no” with a modern, age-of-sexual-freedom “no”. “Yes” is much more acceptable today compared to then. This makes the “no” much more robust and full of will.
We see that songs are difficult to deconstruct. Context is important. Which interpretation of the song should we observe to determine whether it is rapey? Was date rape even a thing back then? How was seduction usually performed and received?
Lacking a precise way to compare the then and now, maybe the response of Loesser’s wife and music partner, Lynn Garland, could inform us. According to Frank and Lynn’s daughter Susan, Lynn considered BICO to be “their song” and was upset with her husband when he sold it to MGM. Susan Loesser says that Lynn got over it after the song won an Oscar. What this indicates is that the woman who helped Frank write the song and who was the original performer of the song didn’t see anything wrong with. Neither should we.
(Susan Loesser discusses the song at 12:00 and a version performed by Frank Loesser and Lynn Garland appears at 13:15.)
This is about to be a decent example of a feminist meta-argument.* In the end, it won’t matter what the social context was at the time “Baby It’s Cold Outside” was written, or how Lynn Garland felt about the whole thing; the song will be successfully tarred as “rapey,” and the damage will have been done.
Which is sad, because it’s a cute song.
*If the facts don’t fit, go meta. “It may have been okay back then, but times have changed, and now the song promotes ‘rape culture.’” Everyone must be made to kneel at the altar of androgyny.
Nice post Chuck. Dean Martin’s version with 3 female vocalists singing the ‘mouse’ part is a staple in my house in December. This is another example of not getting the song, and trying to shoehorn a modern concern (and overreaction) into a song over 50 years old. These two characters in the song aren’t even in the same conversation as the seducer is macking non-stop while the target is avoiding any commitment.
“Salon” and “The Atlantic” are targeting old timey winter romance songs instead of porn sites like ‘porn star punishment’ or ‘ghetto gaggers’. Idiots.
Ever hear the Leon Redbone Zooey Deschanel version? The guy who sang the theme song to Mr. Belvedere chasing the manic pixie dream girl, its like a hipster beta cuckhold.
But cripes, when did The Atlantic become Jezebel for old hags? I remember just ten years ago it was just like a New Yorker for wonks.
How absurd. Another example of Progressives thinking themselves “brave” for taking on something that can’t or won’t fight back.
As for the dreaded “what’s in this drink?” it was indeed a standard trope from a day when it wasn’t assumed that every woman was fully experienced in getting shit-faced drunk and collapsing in the gutter in her glittering micro-mini skirt (thank you, feminism!). So “what’s in this drink” can just be surprise at the alcohol. It’s also simply a cliche thing to say when you have a strong drink.
There is something similar in Guys and Dolls when Sky Masterson takes innocent Sarah to Havana and gets her a Cuban Milkshake (w Barcardi) and it’s her first experience with alcohol. This leads to Sarah dropping her inhibitions and singing “If I Were a Bell,” a song that is rather overt in its sexual content, though all via metaphor.
Ask me how do I feel, little me with my quiet upbringing.
Well sir, all I can say is if I were a gate I’d be swinging!
And if I were a watch I’d start popping my springs!
Or if I were a bell I’d go ding dong, ding dong ding!
It’s a delightful song from what is generally considered the greatest American musical. I don’t recall anyone being shocked yet that it’s “rapey,” but I guess it’s just a matter of time until the thought police get around to it.
Isn’t BICO just an old-school version of “just the tip”? Sure, there comes a point when you stop pressuring, but if she consents then sex was a possibility from the outset. I once scored after a few hours of effort (she’d already decided to spend the night) just by telling a girl, “I’ll still respect you.” It’s not like girls get so worn down they think, “Fine, just go ahead and rape me.”
These people disgust me. Their coming was foretold in Invasion of the Body Snatchers, and now these revolting alien pod people have overrun us and spend all their energies hunting down the surviving humans. Point and howl is what they live for.
What’s especially grotesque is how their inner deformation is masked by their natty clothes and sharp tight little beards and artisanal food fetish objects. But I guess once a totalitarian movement feels itself securely established, it enters its decadent phase. SWPL-infested farmers markets are to our new elites what restricted Western goods emporia were to
Politburo apparatchiks.
Did it occur to those revisionists that sex wasn’t even on the table for this couple? What did Wolf really offer? To cuddle by a warm fire. To hold her ice-cold hands. A smooch or two, perhaps. This was in the days before widely available birth control and the resulting casual pre-marital sex. Oh right. It was the heyday of rape culture. Sheesh.
I saw a comedic routine (from Louis CK maybe?) where the guy is making out with a girl and he keeps trying to escalate. Each time he escalates, she rebuffs him and moves back slightly but then continues. The night ends without sex and the next day they discuss it. The girl says something like, “what was with you last night? I really was into it, but you kept stopping.” “Well, you kept stopping me.” “No, I just wanted you to be aggressive and ignore me saying ‘no’.”
———–
Has Heartiste written a post on the fact that women sort of like men being “rapey”, as long as they’re not “creepy” of course?
This is about to be a decent example of a feminist meta-argument.* In the end, it won’t matter what the social context was at the time “Baby It’s Cold Outside” was written, or how Lynn Garland felt about the whole thing; the song will be successfully tarred as “rapey,” and the damage will have been done.
Which is sad, because it’s a cute song.
*If the facts don’t fit, go meta. “It may have been okay back then, but times have changed, and now the song promotes ‘rape culture.’” Everyone must be made to kneel at the altar of androgyny.
Nice post Chuck. Dean Martin’s version with 3 female vocalists singing the ‘mouse’ part is a staple in my house in December. This is another example of not getting the song, and trying to shoehorn a modern concern (and overreaction) into a song over 50 years old. These two characters in the song aren’t even in the same conversation as the seducer is macking non-stop while the target is avoiding any commitment.
“Salon” and “The Atlantic” are targeting old timey winter romance songs instead of porn sites like ‘porn star punishment’ or ‘ghetto gaggers’. Idiots.
This is becoming an annual thing, just like Bill O’Reilly’s “war on Christmas”. The media is bound and determined to ruin everyone’s holidays.
Excuse me. Have you listened to any rap or other black “songs” lately?
It’s only an elite hobby, since lots won’t be able to read anyway.
Ever hear the Leon Redbone Zooey Deschanel version? The guy who sang the theme song to Mr. Belvedere chasing the manic pixie dream girl, its like a hipster beta cuckhold.
But cripes, when did The Atlantic become Jezebel for old hags? I remember just ten years ago it was just like a New Yorker for wonks.
How absurd. Another example of Progressives thinking themselves “brave” for taking on something that can’t or won’t fight back.
As for the dreaded “what’s in this drink?” it was indeed a standard trope from a day when it wasn’t assumed that every woman was fully experienced in getting shit-faced drunk and collapsing in the gutter in her glittering micro-mini skirt (thank you, feminism!). So “what’s in this drink” can just be surprise at the alcohol. It’s also simply a cliche thing to say when you have a strong drink.
There is something similar in Guys and Dolls when Sky Masterson takes innocent Sarah to Havana and gets her a Cuban Milkshake (w Barcardi) and it’s her first experience with alcohol. This leads to Sarah dropping her inhibitions and singing “If I Were a Bell,” a song that is rather overt in its sexual content, though all via metaphor.
Ask me how do I feel, little me with my quiet upbringing.
Well sir, all I can say is if I were a gate I’d be swinging!
And if I were a watch I’d start popping my springs!
Or if I were a bell I’d go ding dong, ding dong ding!
It’s a delightful song from what is generally considered the greatest American musical. I don’t recall anyone being shocked yet that it’s “rapey,” but I guess it’s just a matter of time until the thought police get around to it.
Feminists: Sucking The Fun Out Of Everything For Over 100 Years.
The Atlantic = Jezebel for Old Hags
Good Men Project = Jezebel for Men
Your commenters came up with two pithy quips in two days. Let’s keep this list going.
Isn’t BICO just an old-school version of “just the tip”? Sure, there comes a point when you stop pressuring, but if she consents then sex was a possibility from the outset. I once scored after a few hours of effort (she’d already decided to spend the night) just by telling a girl, “I’ll still respect you.” It’s not like girls get so worn down they think, “Fine, just go ahead and rape me.”
These people disgust me. Their coming was foretold in Invasion of the Body Snatchers, and now these revolting alien pod people have overrun us and spend all their energies hunting down the surviving humans. Point and howl is what they live for.
What’s especially grotesque is how their inner deformation is masked by their natty clothes and sharp tight little beards and artisanal food fetish objects. But I guess once a totalitarian movement feels itself securely established, it enters its decadent phase. SWPL-infested farmers markets are to our new elites what restricted Western goods emporia were to
Politburo apparatchiks.
The obvious solution to this song problem is to have the song recorded by two black people. No more “rapey,” just “authentic.”
Did it occur to those revisionists that sex wasn’t even on the table for this couple? What did Wolf really offer? To cuddle by a warm fire. To hold her ice-cold hands. A smooch or two, perhaps. This was in the days before widely available birth control and the resulting casual pre-marital sex. Oh right. It was the heyday of rape culture. Sheesh.
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I wonder how much ass Ricardo was getting around that age.
Reblogged this on elevatorgate.
I saw a comedic routine (from Louis CK maybe?) where the guy is making out with a girl and he keeps trying to escalate. Each time he escalates, she rebuffs him and moves back slightly but then continues. The night ends without sex and the next day they discuss it. The girl says something like, “what was with you last night? I really was into it, but you kept stopping.” “Well, you kept stopping me.” “No, I just wanted you to be aggressive and ignore me saying ‘no’.”
———–
Has Heartiste written a post on the fact that women sort of like men being “rapey”, as long as they’re not “creepy” of course?
Peterike said: “The obvious solution to this song problem is to have the song recorded by two black people. No more “rapey,” just “authentic.”
Betty Carter and Ray Charles recorded it in 1966: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB-KN4Ojjbk
Seduction? Maybe. “Date rape”? Preposterous.